Why Students Hate School (And What We’re Missing About Learning)
There’s something I say to my kids most mornings before they walk out the door.
Be brave. Be kind. Be strong.
And then I add, pay attention to where your heart smiles today.
It’s simple.
But it’s also everything.
Because if I’m being honest… I don’t actually care that much about the math worksheet or the spelling test.
What I care about is:
Do they feel like they belong?
Do they feel safe enough to ask questions?
Do they feel confident enough to try again when something gets hard?
And if you’re a parent or educator reading this, I have a feeling you care about that too.
Somewhere Along the Way, Learning Stopped Feeling Human
We’ve created a system where:
Curiosity became grades.
Connection became curriculum.
And learning became something to get through instead of something to experience.
And then we wonder why so many kids say:
“I hate school.”
But here’s the thing no one really says out loud:
👉 Most kids don’t hate learning.
👉 They hate how learning feels.
They hate feeling confused.
They hate feeling behind.
They hate feeling like they’re the only one who doesn’t get it.
And underneath all of that?
There’s often a quieter truth:
They don’t feel like they belong.
What Kids Really Mean When They Say “I Hate School”
I had a moment with one of my kids this year.
She kept saying, “I hate school.”
At first, I brushed it off.
Then I got curious.
And eventually… I realized it wasn’t academic at all.
It was social. Emotional. Relational.
She didn’t feel like she had a place.
And that changed everything.
Because when a child feels like they don’t belong, learning becomes almost impossible..
📣 Listen to the Full Conversation:
The Problem Isn’t the Math (or any curriculum, for that matter)
It’s that learning is becoming less human. Teachers are burned out. Parents are stretched thin.
It’s not about learning at all.
It’s about what’s happening while a child is trying to learn.
Because in that moment, they’re learning:
• whether it’s safe to ask for help
• whether struggle means failure
• whether they’re “smart” or “not smart”
• whether adults will meet them with patience or pressure
This is where growth mindset for kids actually lives — not in posters on the wall, but in lived experience.
The Missing Ingredient in Education: Connection
Great teachers don’t just teach. They bear witness.
They notice the moment a child turns the corner.
They pause.
They reflect it back.
“I love watching you figure that out.”
That’s not fluff.
That’s identity-shaping.
Because when a child feels seen in the learning process, something shifts:
They stay longer.
They try again.
They trust themselves.
This is the foundation of human-centered education — and it’s something no AI, no curriculum, no system can replace.
Why Kids Shut Down When Learning Gets Hard
Let’s talk about something uncomfortable for a second.
A lot of kids today aren’t struggling because they can’t learn.
They’re struggling because they’ve learned that struggle means something is wrong.
So what do they do?
They avoid it.
They shut down.
They give up quickly.
But here’s the truth:
Struggle is not the problem.
Struggle is the process.
And part of our role — as parents, as educators — is not to remove that struggle…
…but to help kids stay with it.
We Might Be Helping Too Much
I say this gently… and with so much compassion.
Sometimes, in our desire to help, we:
• step in too quickly
• fix the problem
• smooth over the discomfort
And in doing so, we unintentionally send the message:
“You can’t handle this.”
But what if we shifted that?
What if instead we said:
👉 “This is hard. And I believe you can figure it out.”
That’s how we build confidence in kids.
Not by removing the hard — but by supporting them through it.
Teaching Kids to Advocate for Themselves
“Fear is the number one killer of advocacy.” - Robert Ahdoot
One day, our kids won’t have us:
• emailing the teacher
• solving the problem
• stepping in on their behalf
So we start small.
“Can you ask your teacher about that?”
“Can you tell them what you need?”
“I’ll help you practice what to say.”
And slowly, they build the muscle of using their voice.
This is how we raise kids who don’t just succeed in school — but trust themselves in life.
The Future of Education Isn’t More Technology
We’re hearing a lot right now about AI in education.
And yes — it will change things.
But here’s what it can’t do:
It can’t notice the subtle shift in a child’s confidence.
It can’t feel the energy in a room.
It can’t bear witness to a human becoming.
And that’s the work.
👀Watch this Minisode on YouTube to Learn:
This isn’t about math — it’s about what happens inside a child while they’re learning something hard
When kids say “I hate school,” they often mean “I don’t feel like I belong”
Great teachers don’t just teach — they make kids feel seen while they’re learning
Kids don’t avoid learning… they avoid the feeling of not knowing
Struggle isn’t the problem — thinking struggle means failure is
AI can deliver information, but it can’t replace human connection in learning
What If We Changed the Goal?
What if school wasn’t just about:
• getting the right answer
• hitting the benchmark
• achieving the grade
What if it was about:
• building resilience
• fostering curiosity
• creating connection
• developing self-trust
Because when we focus on those things…
The learning follows.
A Small Shift That Changes Everything
So maybe tomorrow morning, when we send our kids out the door, we say:
Be brave. Be kind. Be strong.
Pay attention to where your heart smiles.
And:
👉 Pay attention to what feels hard today… because that might be where you’re growing.
Up Next: Finding Your Purpose in 7 Words (or less)!
Resources: One of my favorite books on education of all time:Living, Loving and Learning by Leo Buscaglia
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Why do kids say they hate school?
Often, it’s not about academics. It’s about emotional experience — feeling overwhelmed, disconnected, or like they don’t belong.
How can I help my child enjoy learning again?
Focus on connection over performance. Ask questions, listen deeply, and create a safe space for struggle without rushing to fix it.
What is human-centered education?
It’s an approach that prioritizes relationships, emotional safety, and the learner’s experience — not just outcomes or grades.
How do I help my child when they want to give up?
Normalize the feeling. Let them know it’s okay to struggle, and support them in staying with the challenge rather than avoiding it.
What role does failure play in learning?
Failure (or more accurately, not yet) is a natural and necessary part of learning. It’s how kids build resilience, confidence, and problem-solving skills.
Can AI replace teachers?
AI can support learning, but it cannot replace the human elements of teaching — connection, intuition, and the ability to truly see and respond to a student.
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Welcome back to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast. So, somewhere along the way, learning really just stopped feeling human. And the thing is, is that when kids don't feel seen or safe or connected, it's not just that they can't learn, which they can't, but they also start quietly questioning themselves, their worth, their belonging, and their inherent value. This is episode 154, and today we're talking all about what happens when we bring humanity back into education. Today's guest is Robert Ahdoot. He's an educator, a TEDx speaker, an author, and founder of yeamath.org, a platform dedicated to making learning feel engaging, creative, and deeply human. If you have a kid who's ever said, I hate school, or I hate math, or if you're a homeschooling parent, or just somebody who loves education, this conversation is going to brighten your day. Robert is so much fun. And I can't wait for you guys to hear this episode. Hi, Robert. Welcome to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.
Hi, Ryan. How are you? Nice to see you.
So nice to see you. I am so excited to get into this conversation. I love education. Everybody here listening with us knows that it just holds a place deep in my heart. And one of the things I do to send my kids off to school most mornings is I say something like, be brave, be kind, be strong, some sort of affirmative, like, you've got this kid, you know? And then also pay attention to where your heart smiles. And in doing that, I really just want them to get this sense of that thing, even if it's a little thing, right? Even if it's like talking to their best gal on the playground, really that sense of like what lights me up so much. So I'm curious for you as a dad and an educator, how do you send your kids out the door in the morning? What do you hope they encounter? Who do you hope they'll be? And what do you hope they experience during a day at school?
Oh, I'm so happy that we're talking because that's a terrific send-off. It almost made me want to sing the Disney song Wild Hearts, Wild Soul, won't be to the. I can't hit the note. Yes. Yeah, girl dad. Uh, you know, I think your framing is fantastic. Uh, a big part of my philosophy with both teaching and with parenting is to really allow the space for them to have their experience, uh, to like absorb the world the way they see it. Um I don't have any particular hopes that are specific beyond the ones that you mentioned, like uh dialing into their heart and and speaking when they have something to say. But I don't hope they do anything. I don't hope their grades are anything. It might be blasphemy for some people. Um, I just want them to be fulfilled uh and framing their existence in the place of fulfillment and and joy and laughter. What what made you laugh today, I would ask? Or what was your high five moment of the day? Uh what it what game did you play at recess? Who decided the rules? Did you agree with the rules? Uh like these there's so many, and and I don't always stick the landing. In fact, it takes me several attempts. And uh their mom is a little better at getting them to do it, interestingly enough. She has a kind of wind to their soul. But uh I will ask those questions and and they they get it, they they understand, especially when one of them is not a huge fan of school herself. So that makes it an incredibly deeper challenge.
In the beginning of the school year, one of my children was having a really hard time. And the culmination, like the pinnacle of that, was kind of like mid-year. So that Christmas break type thing. And she would be like, I just hate school. I hate school. And like any typical parent, you know, the first time she said it, it's like, okay, you know, I hear you. Like, uh, we're still going today. Like, get your lunchbox. You can hate it and still go, you know. So, and then the second time it was like, really? Okay, what's going on? And so after some observation, some chatting with the teachers, chatting with the administrators, even chatting with the other parents. Uh, I don't know exactly if she would have put it in these words because, you know, she's nine, but I deduced that there wasn't a sense of belonging for her.
Wow.
And so it wasn't like she was struggling academically. It was like more of a social issue. And I thought, God, I almost just like let this go and and told this kid, like, toughen up buttercup and get out the door. But instead, I really like after months of these issues, like kind of helped get to the root of this issue and kind of solved it, right? With those questions. Like, who makes you so, you know, happy when you spend time with them? Who makes you laugh at lunch? What made you smile? Who did you sit by at lunch? You know, when kids in the class had a conflict, what did you do? What I was realizing is that she felt like she didn't have a place. And so what do we do for those kids who feel like they're just fish out of water when they go to school?
Yeah, I want to really want to acknowledge your uh prognosis of the situation. Uh asking questions, getting her to talk. My daughter's similar age, 10 years old, and does not like school fascinatingly for a polar opposite reason. So that really shows the diverse experiences that these kids have. It's like her social net, I guess, is the thing that's saving her at school. She just doesn't like the lessons. She thinks it's boring. She doesn't like sitting for hours on end at a little desk as a fourth grader, um, reading about the Mars mission or, you know, 1782. It doesn't matter to her, all that stuff. And so your idea to get her talking, to get your daughter talking, and talking to the teacher and creating this collaborative, synergetic resolution is definitely the way to go. Um, I don't like when parents say, Yeah, I didn't like school that much either. You just got to get through it. You might end on that. Um, but what's happening now is most important, and that there can actually be solutions or at least buttresses to help support the foundation of this endeavor. And I mean, nine years old is very young, so we have to be very specific. Uh like helping her find that friend or or let's say friend group or some sort of inclusion at recess or lunch. What's it like at lunch? Are they sitting together? Are they not? Are they talking? Are they opening up? Um, in enlisting the teacher, I think is a great idea in terms of any sort of connective thing that that's there's my wheelhouse, is getting the teacher involved in a sense to say, so I really love when you think out loud about these certain math problems because your mind is so creative. I never thought that we would actually split the pizzas up into thirds first and then give them out. I thought we would give them out. Yeah, yeah, I'm just sort of making up an example. It's like I never thought to think of it that way. Did anyone else think of it that way? Yeah, using her name frequently in the thing to create that sense of understanding and belonging. Um, and then bringing back, calling back to that next, say the next day or the next week. It's like, do we have a creative solution from our friend seated in a row two? This would go a long way, a long way. And then throw little creative slang in there, get them laughing, and all of a sudden you have community. All of a sudden you're creating culture from the teacher's standpoint. The teacher is everything, especially at the elementary level, you know.
Yeah. What you just described is to me advocacy. So, on one part, I'm advocating for my kid. And but then also I've been kind of leading the witness, so to speak, and her advocating for herself. You know, today, ask Miss So-and-so about that thing we talked about, remember, right? And so I've given her opportunities to go up to the teacher, have a one-on-one conversation. Hey, remember this thing we talked about that we were gonna do? So teaching her to advocate for herself, right? Because that's the the plan that we can get our kids to a point where they can advocate for themselves because there's a lot of stuff that we miss during the school day. And so, how would you kind of train your kids and any kid to really be that advocate for themselves while mom and dad aren't like over their shoulder at school?
Right, right. You took the word straight out of my philosophy. I love it. I talk about advocacy from the rooftops. I sing loud with the megaphone. It's putting the students, the child's best interest first, keeping the child's best interests at heart at all times. Uh and you know, when I was a teacher at a high school level, that was one of the big thrusts for the ninth grade dean. Uh, the ninth grade leadership, the counselor, was trying to impress upon these students the importance of self-advocacy at the ninth grade level. So just know that ninth grade versus nine years old, the this is ahead of the curve. And every little mini win, a one win in a month, is tremendous. So for those parents listening out there, it this is a process just like everything else. And we love it. We love the process. It's a joyful process that we can witness that growth. Now, to your question about it, fear is the number one killer of advocacy. Um so let's say a child has something to say or ask. I don't understand something, I need something, uh, this bothers me. The only thing, the only block to asking this or speaking up is fear of something negative happening as a result of this. So it's not that the voice in your head is wrong. The voice in your head is right. That's another form of advocacy, self-trust, inner trust. Uh why is there any reason why you wouldn't ask the teacher for help on this particular thing? Or what's the bathroom policy? I wanted to go to the bathroom, but I couldn't, and I'm so mad. What is the because a lot of this stuff um I'm sure she also felt more than was actually happening. Uh I f I'm sure the teacher felt that she very much belonged in the class community and would almost be surprised, potentially be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if the teacher was surprised.
She was.
Yeah, there you go. So it a lot of this stuff exists in the these beautiful heads of these children. Um, and bringing them closer to reality is a form of advocacy and and impressing, just just setting the record straight. Of course, your teacher wants to ask you questions. I sent an email to her and she said, please, please have her ask me questions. I would love at least one question a day. Please can we that? And and framing it in that way is like, oh, wow. It's almost like a night and day, like a light switch. So it's the voice that she needs to trust and what isn't getting in the way of expressing that voice.
I love that so much. And I think this is where we as, you know, pretty conscious parents come in and really like allowing the space for our children's experience, like you said, and um, gaslighting them, right? When she was coming home, like talking about what was going on. It's like, gosh, that must have been really hard for you. And it it wasn't really anything that I thought was like major, but it was like she was deeply feeling about it. And um, the more the more I just allowed the space, here we are in the springtime, and I feel as though the situation that was a challenge at school is almost completely dissolved. And it's just kind of worked its way out. And I think that's such a testament to me. Oh, tooting my own horn. No, I'm just kidding. We don't get to do that that often as parents, though.
I can, I can tune your horn. Yay, Ryan. You did it. Resolved.
Yes. Thank you so much. And, you know, I do think we have this opportunity. And sometimes we miss this opportunity. Sometimes I miss this opportunity to really just lean in and listen to what our kids are experiencing and allow that to be instead of because what we do is we get in our head, oh my God, what does this mean about me? What does this mean about her? She's gonna be a gang leader, da-da-da. You know, all that stupid stuff that we have go on in our heads. It's ridiculous, right?
Yeah, yeah. Or it or diminishing the experience. Oh, kids, you know, nine years old, so precious. I remember those. It's I don't believe in doing that. I I think it's it's the wrong path. We can uh in private moments, you know, with loved ones or grandparents, we can talk about how cute they are and nine years old and things like that, and how, you know, young they are relative to the wisdom in the world. Of course, that's not false, but we have to honor their experience. And and I'm telling you, this is really important to do because it's laying the groundwork for future problems that the kids inevitably encounter. The beautiful thing about young age is that the problems are low stakes. This is a like this was a teacher that you could resolve the problem with because the teacher cares. In ninth or tenth grade, you may have a teacher that does not care. It happens like, or at least appear to not care. At least appear to, or be so overwhelmed that can't have the capacity to care. Let's do it in fairness, but it still comes out that way to the kid. And what type of dynamic do your kids have with you such that can they come home and immediately turn on the crying faucets if they need to? Or will they feel like you're just gonna, you know, dust them, dust themselves off and try again? You know, it so it I can't express how important it is in these low stakes, relatively low stakes to life, but high in their eyes. It's a beautiful thing. It even started when they spilled the juice when they were two years old and cried. Of course, that's low stakes. But we were there for them, we comforted them, we made sure that it was like, it's not a we're not mad at you. It's okay to be as you are. This happens. And they get over it. But that's the idea of that's the beauty of low stakes practice is to acknowledge the experience, not to stop them from crying or to minimize or stuff that my parents used to do. And it was just culturally what they did growing up was like to distract with something really funny. Ha ha like that type of thing.
Totally. Totally.
A lot of people do that. They think that's like just get rid of the tears as soon as possible is the goal. This is wrong to me.
Yeah.
Um, and they've actually come full circle on that. My parents and they're that generation. Um, everyone I talked to about it, I was like, yeah, that was, we were just trying to survive. Yeah. And so that was the go-to, was humor at the wrong times. And so that you could take that lesson from now to now. What about what if you did humor at wrong times? That's devastating. We have a rule in our house. Uh, no jokes when there are big feelings. When there are big feelings in the room, no one's allowed to joke.
I love that.
And I had to change my tune on this. I was on autopilot when they were young. And then it was a it was a pretty easy fix because I don't like when people do it with me. Totally. I'm not talking about like the the moment has run its course and someone breaks the ice, breaks the tension, you know, because it implies that we've moved forward. Like they're we've turning the we're turning the page. Uh uh, we're not hard and fast with rules. But in that deep moment when she's upset, it's devastating. And so that goes to the lack of acknowledgement, that goes to not advocating because you're not make you're you're removing the chance to feel the full feeling and have that growth. Um, and so it is a victory and it sets up future victories for you. I'm really happy to hear that you're doing that.
Thank you. So when a child or a learner says something like, We're just gonna use math because you are the founder of yeamath.org, and math is an easy one to pick on. Sorry, Robert. So when a child says something like, I hate math, what do you think they're really trying to say?
Yeah, it's totally fine. Like I want students to voice those feelings. I really do. I I tell them that I don't own math. They won't hurt my feelings. It's not mine. You know, so please feel free. And and that's actually a nice twist. So for any parents out there that are math enthusiasts, it's a nice frame to get your kid, if your child is not a big fan of the subject yet, or if ever, to be like, yeah, you could not like it. That's totally fine. Just because I like something doesn't mean it flies in the face of you don't have to like football if I like football. You don't have to like, you know, whatever, pasta. They probably do, but yeah.
They do.
They do. You don't have to like this. Yeah. But I think what they're really saying is that it's not that the math they don't like. Um, they just don't like not knowing it. That's what it is. There is a moment where every child likes it, or at least is gets the value. I I once volunteered in my uh daughter's kindergarten class, and I I brought in these cards that had uh one through ten on them effectively, and then they're working at tables, and uh it was find all the ways to add to ten with with cards, starting with two cards, then three carts, you know, four cards, because that so created a good ramp uh for deeper understanding. No one in the room did not like the exercise. They understood the value intrinsically of adding to 10 is an important concept. They they just understood it on a on a grand level, like how to manipulate numbers. And then fast forward to you know, what is the value of X if you are solving for the hourly salary of blah, blah, blah, with hourly cost being like that type of thing, then it's like, ah, I'm checking out. So somewhere along the lines, we've lost the thread. And I would imagine that it has to do with not understanding something on a deep level. That's the first thing that I would look at. Uh and then the second thing is how it's being framed. It could be framed in very different ways. Like if you don't like fractions, for example, I get it. But you could ask a question like which fraction is bigger? Because if something like that, if you framed it in such a way, it's like if you had to do this much yard work versus this this much yard work, which would you prefer? And now it's become like this personal high-low game. And and so and by how much you could ask. Or if you were starting a business, would you rather have one-third ownership or three-eighths ownership of the business? Have you ever seen Shark Tank? Here you go. And so now they're motivated on another level. Um, or if someone lies, I ate one-third of pizza, I ate more than you, you ate three-eighths. Is that a lie or truth? You're tapping into some like a language or culture or feelings. You know, and you could act out, why are you lying about one third being more? Uh it's a how it's presented really matters as well. Once they understand more, then it could be presented in in really effective ways. There's a new movement that everyone's a math person. I've always believed this. Everyone's a math person.
That's a bold claim, Robert. I'm an English major here. I had to just write down one third and three-eighths on my paper, literally. So that's a bold claim, but sell us on it. Come on.
Yeah, it's just once you understand if you saw something, if you saw that they are both, let's say, 24ths, if you understood that two twenty-fourths is more than one twenty-fourth. You understand that, yes, I imagine.
Yes.
Two of something is more than one of something.
Two twenty-fourths is more than one of those. More than one twenty-fourth.
Right. Okay. Let's do this. Let's do this on behalf of your audience. Let's do this on behalf, okay? Okay. Let's put yourself out there.
Oh, I'm nervous. Okay.
That's right. That this is the point. Like this is you're doing your modeling now.
Okay.
Great. So two of something is more than one of something, right?
Yes.
Right. Two strawberries is more than one strawberry. Yes. Two cats is more than one cat. Two twenty-fourths is more than one twenty-fourth. So if we could frame that one third and three-eighths both as twenty-fourths, then we would know which one's bigger. Because now we're comparing the same type of thing. Like we're comparing cats, number of cats with the number of strawberries. Now we're comparing the number of 24ths. See, that is half the lesson right there. We don't have to, we don't have to do the whole thing. It would require little paper and things like that. But now framing it as like, oh, how can we make them both the same type of thing instead of comparing thirds and eighths, which is they're not it's apples to oranges comparison in that regard. So how can we make them the same type of thing, both in the context of 24ths? Then we would know who ate more pizza.
Do you know what I did?
What'd you do?
Uh when I wrote three eighths down, I made it three ninths. And so I knew that three eighths was less than one third.
Oh, bravo. So yeah, you made the numerator the same. Yeah, because three eighths versus three ninths. So I was talking about making the denominator the same, which is a classic method. Yeah. You did an intuitive thing, making the numerator the same, which deserves like a huge or let's say single person, yay, clap peek, clap peep.
Thank you so much.
So you are a math person, then I rest my case.
Okay. I'm a math person. And I do math every day. Like, I mean, like that's just real, right? I'm like the CFO of our household. I run a business. I run a household. Like I do do math every day. But at some point along the way, actually, I know what point it was. It was sixth grade. It was pre-algebra. I just lost it and I just turned it off. I just was like, okay, goodbye. And I just turned it off. And so I did enough to get by, right? Um, but I just wasn't proficient and I didn't care. Like I was like, I'm done. I don't care. Um, and so all this to say is I believe from hearing you speak and from knowing your work that it's not actually about the math. Like when you just said, Oh, we're gonna use you as an example for the audience, and I said, I'm nervous. And you're like, This is the point. This is the point of feeling those feelings, the negative or positive associations with it. I heard you say on another podcast, what if we just made it neutral? Like, what if it was just like the table is brown, the sky is blue, and I'm doing a math problem today, right?
Yeah. Right. Thank you for listening to that. I I uh I think we're very kindred spirits in that regard. Um, I've listened to some of your work as well. Like I love the uh concept on fire horse energy.
Yep.
About uh what was it? Robust presence.
Robust presence. Robust presence spoke to me.
That was exactly see. I was I think my default state is that of trying to be present for learners. I work towards that hard. And so I didn't diminish the fact that you were nervous. I didn't say it's not a big deal. See, these are that's not being present.
Right.
Or at least it's not effective at it. Um versus you're doing a service for the people listening right now who probably are channeling the feelings that you have. Um, and and we're using it as an opportunity to grow. And so you are right, you've got me pegged. Yes, math is the opportunity opportunity to connect, and that through that connection, math learning and all learning flourishes.
Yeah. So this is where I want to really talk about what makes a good teacher phenomenal.
I've been thinking about this for 20 years, effectively. And I couldn't help but but have a little juicy comparison to AI. Let's say, let me try one with you.
Okay.
And you tell me if it hits, because everything that we can do phenomenally to use your word, is one that fails in the AI sense. Let's say the AI as a teacher or as a guide. And I do have this pledge that the second the AI takes over and does everything I'm about to say better, then I will have nothing to say. I'm done, I'll be done. I'll be done with this work. But I don't I think if I live to 100, I'll still be talking. So here's one for example. Um, teachers, educators, anyone that's educating homeschool parents, we bear witness. This is something that human beings do. We bear witness. And I use this phrase intentionally because you can't have a witness in the space of one person. Uh witness is a person amongst another person or another event. It it can't exist in a vacuum. So let's say a child makes this little breakthrough. Let's say the one that you had, three eighths versus three ninths. Uh one that I didn't prompt, by the way. So it was your own personal epiphany, so it deserves witnessing. And let's say when you had that moment in the classroom and you were stuck before, I were to come over to your desk, stand near you, and say, Ryan, I just love watching you learn. It's I love it so much that it's better than Netflix. It is. It's like it's the highest form of joy for me to see you learn something. Did anyone else see that moment? So now you're inviting the other people to witness in the class, let's say. We don't do this enough. We don't do the it's our job to bear witness to the kids. Um I think that what happens is that we're so obsessed with getting answers right. Um we're so obsessed with getting to the conclusion that we don't pause and witness. There's so many nuanced ways. Here's another way that that let's say, see, AI couldn't do that. And AI could could you could imagine a computer telling you, I love watching you learn. It's like, you're a robot, baby. You're not, you're nothing. You're I know.
I told my chat GPT, I'm like, stop being so nice to me because every idea I say, it's like, oh, you're just so brilliant. I'm like, stop. I the gig is up. I need you to push back on three bullet points here. I can't be the smartest one in the room, Chatty. Come on.
Chatty, Chatty, don't be so chatty.
Come on.
Do you think do you think this interview will be the one that uh ghost shadow bans us now from Oh, I hope so. Yeah.
That would be the honor of my podcasting career.
I love it. Courageous, courageous. Like, yeah, the people will speak.
The yes, they will.
Yeah, it's it's so right. We're we're asking the human beings to double down on what makes them human. Uh one one thing I love to do as well. Let's say a student is getting to a place of understanding. They they turn the corner and they say something to the effect of, oh, so you just subtract the two fractions. And before I answer, I say, I love when students use the word just. Yes. Yes. That is all you do. You just subtract the two fractions. I'm glad you see that now. Wonderful. Yeah. So tell me what the answer is. So it would you're carving out this moment of to witnessing. You're not just saying yes, but you're giving them this thing where they actually turned a corner and you see it. You're right there. It's fleeting. That's the beautiful thing about it. It's you have to be so attuned and so ready to understand when did the tide shift? When you could feel it. Um teachers have this skill. Teachers need to uh uh keep the skill. Say things like, I think I've lost the room. Have I lost the room? Something like that. That's a witness mode.
Yep.
Where did I lose you? It's not a bad thing. You're not in trouble for being lost. It's on me. Witness is one that we can do, juxtaposed with with an AI moment in life, you know?
Brilliant.
Yeah.
Brilliant. I think that paints us a beautiful picture because as you were talking, I felt like really seen. I mean, I put myself in that student situation. And if a teacher was speaking to me like that, I would feel very seen and understood. And one of the sentences I've been saying to my kids a lot, uh and my husband, help me understand. And I got this from one of my beautiful, brilliant past guests. I don't know who it is now, but help me understand. What a great sentence, you know?
Yeah. Yeah, because you're framing yourself as the learner.
Yeah.
Um, and that that it's hypocritical to not to to expect people to learn, but not frame yourself as the learner as well. Students are really. As a teacher. Exactly.
And as a parent, exactly. I'm still learning alongside of you, right?
Exactly. That's exactly what I'm saying. Exactly. Like I I when I have life advice for students that I can speak with, let's say, full-throatedness, with 100% clarity, it's because I can say right at the end, and I often do, I would say, if you've learned this lesson, it's the same lesson that I struggle with sometimes. I need to learn time management. I can't just say I'll be there in a couple minutes. What does that even mean? I've gotten a lot better, but it's always something that I will be thinking about. Uh, and so framing it like you're struggling, framing it that you want to understand, that you want to learn. And and and it's not their fault for feeling something or not knowing something. You're actually taking the onus, this is elevated living. Let's say a student were to ask you a question or a child, because they didn't understand something you said. I like to say, thank you for clarifying, or thank you for asking, or I love this question. Yes, yes, yes. I could, I could say it a different way. What I need to say is I needed to say what I meant when I said the sum. Yeah. The sum means adding, right? We never really define that. Thank you for that. Does anyone else have any clarification needs? Because I'm glad we're doing this. See, like how many times am I circling back on the fact that there's no shame in asking? And remember, we talked about how your daughter is setting up future situations with you that are more high stakes. So there will be times where the question is less benign about I don't understand your question. And so you create yourself as this figure of thank you for clarifying, thank you for asking. I understand your logic. I get why you would ask that. If you create that type of dynamic, then it just opens up the airwaves. Now the information can flow back and forth. And if someone doesn't know something, it's not bad, it's not wrong. It's just part of the daily business. It's it's destigmatized. Neutral is a win. I don't get something, and that's okay. It's totally neutral. And that these are all so human because you have to be ready for that moment to respond in that place. And it's funny, I first learned this when I was a cashier. One of my jobs growing up is a cashier. And I ask yourself this next time you're at the supermarket. Imagine what it's like from the cashier's perspective. If the cashier looks up, every pair of eyes is on the cashier. We're all looking at the cashier. When you're in line, that's where the action is. You know, if it's not your phone, let's just say, take the phone out of the equation. You're just looking. It's like it's also when am I going to be up next? And what's the rate? How's it going? And there's this action there. So I looked up as a cashier. I see all these eyes. It's the same as a teacher and as a parent. The number of times the eyes are on you is the majority. So saying things like, thank you for doing that publicly, they're good, their eyes will be huge, bright watching these moves and clocking them, going in their own mental computer so that next time things happen, they'll be more inclined to speak up.
So I'm hearing you talk about leadership. I'm hearing you say that the teacher in the front of the classroom is a leader, the parent in the carpool line is a leader, that we are leaders in our own lives, even if we're not running Fortune 500 companies. Yes. And I also heard you say on a podcast interview prior, you said a lot could be fixed with good leadership, that the traditional model, and these are my words, I'm summarizing, isn't necessarily the problem. And that ruffled my feathers a little bit because I'm an Aquarius and I'm like, you know, F the man. Let's really get shadow banned here. And like we have to make a completely new system. And, you know, we have to just completely revolutionize what we do in education. And while some of that is true, really your work makes me think a little differently about it. And I'm learning that, yeah, maybe a lot could be fixed with good leaderships.
The best form of leadership is when we don't have the title and we still lead anyway. Um, that that is the most inspired form. Um and it's going to take on different cloaks, uh, one, or I can even say capes, different capes uh in different realms. I mean, for people at school, administrators, uh the leadership is two-pronged. They have to support their educators, their teachers to do the best work they can, give them everything they need in order to do that job, listen to their concerns, uh, set them up for success, and then at the same time, prong number two is have hold them to the expectations that they jointly create. Those expectations can be somewhat fluid. If the state says that the benchmark is blah, blah, blah percentile average in your math scores by the end of the year. I think the administrator and in good conscience and good health can say, look, like, we understand the standard is there, but like don't break your head trying to do it. I'd rather you have a wonderful class and teach to the room that you're in front of. Inspire your students, teach them as much as you can, but don't like, don't lose sleep over this benchmark that we got this email from from the superintendent. That's leadership. That's leadership. And how can I help you get there? And all the way up to all the way up to really bold new models. There's a new model that's emerging now that's catching fire called Defronting the Classroom. I like this. It's basically putting whiteboards around the room, and the students stand and work in independently or in pairs or trios. It's by uh an author named uh Peter Lillajell. And defronting the classroom is a radical attempt to change the dynamic of standing at the front, the stage on the stage model. And so those are also forms of leaderships, uh take turning into standards-based grading. My daughter's middle school took that on this year. It's really cool. Standards-based instead of grades. I support this. So it takes the pressure off. Are you getting an A or a B? Or are you learning stuff? And if you don't know it, it's not yet. It's not, I messed up. It's not yet. Let me try to fix it by next week and the week after and the week after, like life. So you have the chance as a leader to both do things that are, let's say, on paper. Hey, here's a new model. And off paper, hey, don't worry about if you don't meet the thing. I'll support you. And it's just having the everyone's best interests at heart, from the student all the way up to the teacher and the parents as well. They they deserve advocacy as well.
We learned about failure as that it was bad and wrong. How do we reframe failure as a chance to actually learn? And moreover, where learning must occur, actually.
Yeah, that's right. Uh I I think we have to even come full circle on the concept of failure. Um you are you are right that we learn from failure. These are the facts. But failure is such a heavy word. Um, where when we were becoming proficient at something, let's say what is this episode 150, 149? What are you?
I think I'm uh I think this will land at 154, episode 154.
154. I I wouldn't label one through 20 as fails, nor would you. Uh, you were just learning. And so this is really has a lot of gravity as well because in the social media era, there is this huge fear of trying something out because we look at someone that can jump off a trampoline and do five flips and like, look at this incredible cuisine that I made, and look at this skateboard trick. I'm on the rail and I'm doing a smooth backflip on the snowboard. Come on. I think these are detrimental to little kids watching, and they're cool to watch, but they have a subconscious detriment because it's like, I'll never do only a select few, but like, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do everything it takes to get there. I'm gonna head to the mountain every weekend. The rest are gonna be like, I'm never gonna be that good. Why would I even try? So here's what we can do. Here's what we can do. When I start a new topic that I'm teaching, and there's a lack of familiarity in the room, I'll start with a opening question. Does anyone know how to solve this equation? It's okay if you don't know. I I end my preamble with, it's okay if you don't know. Just it's that like giving them that permission, this obsession with what the answer is, is is gone too far. And their lack of patience is reached a fever pitch. Another one you could say is let's say you start a topic off and they and you ask the room uh individually, on a scale of one to 10, where 10 is you are a master, and one is I've never seen this before in my life. Where are you? And then they might say three. So now you're framing it as a dial, as a spectrum. So you think three, okay, okay. So we're not at average yet, but you're not a rookie, right? So you're up to this far, and then you do some more work, and then you come back, like, where are you now? And they're like, oh, like five, maybe six. Like, nice, okay, all right. So your average understanding, it's only been one day. Great work, that's nice. And someone else is at a three, that's okay. Like, you know, someone's at an eight, like, all right, here's a problem for you. Mr. or Miss Eight, boom, put it there. And so giving them the permission to know that it's a, it's a, it's a ramp and not a vertical climb, they need to know that. And then they'll actually, they're wired to do that. Actually, they're wired. This is why Jonathan Haidt talks about the importance of play. Uh, when they're playing by themselves, if the second they master one thing on the skateboard, they're going to naturally make it more challenging for themselves. They want to go faster. No one told them to do that. They want to. They're wired to. When we have to set the conditions for them to do so. And so that's, I believe, in doing that as parents, as teachers.
I love that. My friends over at the Most Important Thing podcast with Greg and Danielle Newfeld recently talked about something called cognitive. Cognitive patience and not just for their kids, but for themselves as well. So they play various games with their children and just really get used to that feeling of like, I don't know yet, and sticking with that feeling. And, you know, one thing this conversation really has me doing, Robert, is when my kids go off to school in the morning, I need to really, like, I'm just kind of thinking out loud here. I need to really stick the landing. Like, I'll play with it after this. But I want to add something to that, like be brave, be strong, be kind, like all that flowery stuff, and like pay attention to where your heart smiles. I want to really give them an invitation to notice what might feel hard in a given day, what might be a challenge for you today. Pay attention to that because that might be an invitation for you to grow, you know?
Yeah. Yeah. And I I I will do the same in in a reciprocal fashion. I believe in those things. And but I don't I don't think I say them enough on a daily basis or like a regular mantra. You know, I'll teach the kids to listen to their heart and follow their the voice in their head.
I love that. We're in solidarity together and everybody's still here listening with us. I think, I think we're all thinking a little bit differently about education, about school, about homeschooling, you know, whatever situation everybody here is in. I think like this conversation gives us a bird's eye view. It's not so tunnel vision on gotta get good grades or it's all about the math. It's just feels way lighter to me. And I think everyone here is nodding their head with us in agreement. And Robert, your work is just phenomenal. YayMath.org, right?
That's right. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on.
Absolutely. Thank you so much for being here.
