Reimagining Education: How Montessori & the Socratic Method Help Raise Independent Thinkers
Reflections on education reform, raising free thinkers and the future of education on episode 135 of the Raising Wild Hearts Podcast with Marsha Familaro Enright — Reliance College Founder & Great Connections Educator.
In an age of screens, testing, and constant comparison, many parents are asking the same question: Is there a better way to educate our kids?
In this episode of Raising Wild Hearts, educator and philosopher Marsha Familaro Enright invites us to rediscover the heart of learning — where Montessori teaching methods, the Socratic Method, and the benefits of alternative education meet to create curious, capable, and free-thinking humans.
Why “how to think” matters more than “what to think”
Marsha opens with a challenge:
“If someone is going to become an independent, thriving human being, they must be able to understand the world and judge it for themselves.”
That’s the essence of both Montessori education and the Socratic method of teaching — empowering students to think critically, ask questions, and trust their reasoning.
In Montessori classrooms, children move freely, choose meaningful work, and follow their curiosity. Teachers act as guides, not lecturers. In a Socratic setting, students discuss great ideas by asking questions instead of memorizing answers. These methods share one belief: true learning happens through discovery.
Montessori teaching methods: cultivating curiosity and confidence
Maria Montessori believed that children are naturally motivated to learn — they just need the right environment. Her Montessori teaching methods emphasize independence, sensory learning, and respect for each child’s pace.
Marsha explains how even preschoolers can understand complex ideas through tangible materials — think Montessori math beads and golden bead cubes that make abstract numbers visible. This hands-on learning builds a foundation for creativity and confidence that lasts for life.
Parents can bring these same Montessori-at-home ideas into their daily rhythm:
Create open shelves with materials your child can choose from freely.
Offer real-life tasks like cooking, sorting, or folding as “learning moments.”
Invite your child to follow their curiosity instead of rushing to finish a worksheet.
Encourage conversation — Montessori learning thrives on gentle dialogue.
When we trust children’s natural curiosity, we fuel both their intellect and their joy.
📣 Listen to the Full Conversation:
The Socratic method: a timeless tool for thinkers of all ages
As Marsha describes, her programs at The Great Connections Seminar and Reliance College use an updated Socratic seminar model to teach reasoning and communication.
In a typical Socratic seminar example, students read a shared text — perhaps Aristotle, Jane Austen, or a modern essay — and then engage in guided discussion. Instead of being told what to think, they’re invited to ask:
“What does the author mean here?”
“What evidence supports this idea?”
“How does this connect to our lives today?”
Each comment must be backed by reason and evidence, not emotion or popularity. Students learn to listen deeply, respond respectfully, and connect ideas across disciplines. It’s an education in critical thinking, empathy, and leadership — the qualities every parent wants to nurture.
Alternative education benefits: beyond the classroom walls
The benefits of alternative education go far beyond grades or test scores. Marsha highlights how Montessori, Waldorf, micro-schools, and homeschool co-ops give kids room to grow — literally and figuratively.
Students learn self-discipline, creativity, and real-world problem-solving. They see that success isn’t about fitting a mold — it’s about following purpose.
And research backs it up: a surprising number of innovators and CEOs (Jeff Bezos, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, and others) were Montessori kids. Andrew McAfee explores this connection in The Geek Way, showing how early freedom to explore can lead to extraordinary innovation later in life.
Raising wild hearts at home: the parent’s role
You don’t need a private school to raise an independent thinker. As Marsha and I explored, it starts in the home.
Ask open-ended questions around the dinner table. Give kids real responsibilities. Expose them to different professions, hobbies, and life paths. And perhaps most importantly — let them experience challenge.
This is where the Let Grow movement, founded by Lenore Skenazy, aligns beautifully with Montessori philosophy: give kids unsupervised, real-world opportunities to build courage and competence.
Marsha also recommends classics like How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk and Montessori: The Science Behind the Genius for parents ready to shift from control to connection.
The ripple effect of re-education (for us, too)
As adults, we also get to re-learn how to learn. We can step back and ask, What do I actually believe? How do I think?What kind of learner am I now?
Marsha reminds us: education isn’t something that happens to us — it’s something we choose to continue. The Socratic method works for grown-ups, too. Ask questions. Seek evidence. Be willing to change your mind.
When we model that curiosity, our children see what it means to live freely and think deeply.
Final takeaway: freedom starts in the mind
Whether you’re homeschooling, working within a traditional system, or just curious about Montessori at home, the invitation is the same: create environments that nurture autonomy, respect, and inquiry.
As Marsha says:
“Almost every time a child acts out, it’s because they’re trying to fulfill a real need. Can you change the circumstances so they can get what they need — and still grow?”
When we start there — with curiosity, compassion, and critical thinking — we’re not just raising smart kids. We’re raising wild hearts: grounded, resilient, and ready to create a freer world.
Up Next: Rise & Flourish Series: Rediscovering Your True Self in Motherhood (even when it’s hard)
Resources: Sign up for Ryann’s free 3-Part Video Series, Do The Thing🔥
Full transcript of this conversation with Ryann Watkin and Marsha Familiaro Enright:
Ryann (00:01.563)
Hello friends, welcome back to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast, where psychology meets soul and where we believe we can change the world by starting at home in our own minds and hearts. Today, we're going to talk about something that's been on my mind and heart for a long time, as you know, education. And not just for our kids, but as humans who are wildly curious, passionate, and never stop learning. My guest, Marsha Familiaro Enright.
has spent her career re-imagining what true education can be, and honestly, I think what freedom really means. Marsha founded and ran a Montessori school for over 25 years. She created the Great Connections Seminar to help young adults learn how to think, not what to think. And now she's building Reliance College, a revolutionary higher education model designed to cultivate self-reliant leaders.
In this conversation, we're going to explore how modern education has failed to nurture independent thought and what it takes to actually raise thinkers, innovators, and I think courageous hearts. So whether you're a parent, an educator, an entrepreneur, or a lifelong learner, I think this one's going to challenge the way you see learning. So Marsha, welcome to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.
Marsha (01:21.282)
Thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.
Ryann (01:24.055)
Yeah, I'm really excited to dive into this topic today. And you often say we need to teach our next generation how to think, not what to think. I think that's going to flip what many parents really believe about education on their head, because we think we send them off to school and they learn X, Y, Z, and they learn to check the boxes. But why would we be teaching them how to think?
Marsha (01:50.786)
Well, if someone is going to become an independent, thriving human being, they need to be able to understand the world themselves and judge everything for themselves and what's best for them. There's not gonna be any teacher or any parent out there telling you what to do when you grow up, nor does anybody else really know what you need and what you should do in order to achieve it. So that's why it's so important to learn how to think well.
Ryann (02:17.063)
That's so true. So I'm a Montessori kid. I went to a Montessori preschool when I was really little. And I still remember just loving it. My mom used to say that I didn't want to come home. Like, I just loved it so much. And my kids have dabbled in various Montessori preschools as well. And can we just lay the foundation? Like, what was Maria Montessori's vision? And what is the whole philosophy behind Montessori?
Marsha (02:45.486)
Sure thing. So Maria Montessori was the first woman doctor in Italy. Her first job was to work at a clinic for autistic and intellectually disabled children. She noticed that they spent a lot of time playing with their food, and she figured out that it was because they needed some sensory stimulation and they weren't getting anything in institution. she went back and looked at what
All the other education theorists had thought the previous 200 years and she created a program for them using a lot of what we call materials. Other people might think of them as games that teach you ideas. They teach you how to write, how to read, how to count, how to do art, how to understand history. Anyway, she created all these materials. The children did so well with the materials, by the end of the year they passed the state exam for normal children.
And this made her almost instantly world famous. while everybody else was saying, wow, isn't this great, she was sitting there thinking, hmm, if these children can pass the state exam for normal children, what are the normal children being taught? So she was concerned about how to improve the educational experience. And in 1907, she opened a school in a very poor neighborhood of
Rome with children who came from extremely ignorant families. They had in the sense that they had come from the country. They were working in factories. They were illiterate. They were numerate. And the children were running around the apartment building, vandalizing things. So she got them a school. She put them together in this school, not with a teacher, but just with a woman who would kind of oversee what they were doing and with her materials and gave certain instructions about what they should do.
Well, the children had such a remarkable reaction to this. She would visit them maybe once a week. They had such a remarkable reaction. They got physically healthier without a change in their diet. They were so enthusiastic about learning that on the day that it was closed, they went and opened all the materials in order to be able to work on it. And they just had this amazing result. they started teaching their family.
Marsha (05:13.41)
how to do things better. So this also made her very famous and people came from all over the world to see the school. Well, from that it expanded and expanded. So the schools are very much aimed at each individual child working at their own pace. The teacher's job is to observe the children, figure out what each child needs to learn next and...
present them in small group lessons with it. The materials are arranged on shelves, child child shelves around the room in subject area and order of difficulty. The children, because they want to work with those materials because they're just the right level of difficulty and interest for them, becomes what we call self-disciplined, where they will behave because they want to be able to do the next most exciting thing that they can do.
The schools spread around the world. There's 5,000 in the US. In the last 20 years, they've hugely expanded into elementary and even into high school. Is there anything else you'd like me to explain about it?
Ryann (06:23.27)
That's a beautiful overview. I just wanted to put a pin in that for people who don't necessarily know what the Montessori method is. And that's such a beautiful foundation for us to understand that. You said something, and I heard you say basically that these children were becoming intrinsically motivated. So I talk a lot about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And in a traditional modern classroom,
We see behavior charts, right? So we see many extrinsic motivators and it's then taking the child's intrinsic motivation and kind of from where I'm standing, squashing it. And you said something and the phrase was, these children were enthusiastic about learning. And wherever we look today, we don't really see that much enthusiasm for learning.
And why do you think that is? What is up with our modern day classrooms that is completely squashing this intrinsic motivation and this enthusiasm for learning?
Marsha (07:31.342)
Well, first, let me just point out that if you know two-year-old children, you know it's almost impossible to stop them from learning. They are constantly exploring their environment, trying to find out things, trying to imitate what other people are doing. It's their natural inclination. What happens by the time they're eight years old and they don't want to go to school? The problem is the environment and the way in which they're being taught. It's not in line with their developmental needs. And that's something that
Montessori, being a doctor and coming from a biological background, was the first to recognize that we develop with different learning needs at different ages and that you should set up the school environment in a way that serves those learning needs. So for example, the three to six year old is very sensory motor oriented and they need to learn almost all their concepts through these materials. As they get older, the children still use materials but
They become more and more abstract in their thinking. Now, what's happened in the last 30, 40 years in traditional education? Traditional education was not oriented to the learning needs of the child to begin with, with everyone doing the same thing at the same time in a classroom where you had to sit at a desk, you couldn't move around, you couldn't talk to other people. Montessori said, we learn so much by talking to people as adults. Why do we make the children be quiet?
If the children are working on something in the Montessori classroom, then conversation is welcomed because they learn from each other, they invite each other to work together. And by the way, as far as motivation, I had many letters from parents over the years telling me my child loves school so much that he lies to me when he's sick so he won't miss school. And other things like that.
Ryann (09:26.396)
Parents are like, really? I mean, that's shocking for some people to hear.
Marsha (09:26.538)
So.
Yes, but it's true. mean, I just interviewed a man who came to our school the first year that it was open. He had been to several other schools. He was in fourth grade and he just had a really rough time. And he just went on about like what a great environment this was, how nurturing it was to him, how it was like a family. There were people of all different kinds there. He got this great cultural experience.
He was encouraged in whatever he was doing. He could work at his own pace. He's now a world famous video game designer. And he attributes it to having been in Montessori School. And interestingly, and I know I haven't answered your question yet about traditional education, but I'll get there. Interestingly, there was a book that came out in 2023 called The Geek Way by a researcher at MIT Business School. Andrew McAfee.
And he had been a Montessori student and then he'd been put into regular school and his reaction was kind of like, what is this? Why can't I do things like I did in Montessori school? Well then there was another set of researchers who were looking into the backgrounds of the CEOs of a lot of tech companies and what were their characteristics. And they were shocked to find out that a huge number of them had gone to Montessori school. So.
This Andrew McGaffey, he wrote the Geek Way and had gone to Montessori School and then gone to regular school. He connected the dots and he said these researchers were given the ability as children to follow their own interests, be very engaged in learning and be very creative. And this has a lot to do with why so many of the CEOs were from Montessori School, including very famous ones like Jeff Bezos and the Google founders and Anne Frank and Julia Child.
Marsha (11:24.204)
and many other people. So what's happened in traditional education? Traditional education, not only did it not start with the developmental needs of the children, but about 30 years ago, we had the Department of Education come in and start overseeing everything everybody was doing across the country. And of course, motivating schools to follow what they wanted with money from the Department of Education.
there was some concern that children were not learning well enough. So they decided to install this top-down standards. And a lot of people know about No Child Left Behind, that program, which required that if the school got money from the federal government, they had to pass certain exam at certain levels. Well, this just drove all the learning to end up being very exam focused and not child focused.
And this happened all over the country, on top of which there was a, there were a lot of ideas coming from the universities and being inculcated into the teachers about how you have to teach the children certain ideology. And this became very incorporated into the curriculum too. Ideology, which frankly is not about learning how to be independent or learning to think well.
but to follow certain ideas that the intellectuals and the teachers then thought were good to do. And all of this together was a tremendous drag on learning. So that what I see now, especially with the older students, is they're just wanting to try to get through, to get their credential, and get out in the world. Because school is so painful to them.
It's because it's not oriented to actually engagingly interesting things to do in a way that they need or anything like that.
Ryann (13:32.146)
Right. Yeah. One of the things I've told my kids since they were young, like, and they taught themselves how to read, like, and I know that like sounds bonkers to some people, but like we didn't have to like sit there and like teach them how to read. They learned how to read. I still have a four year old and he's not there yet, but he will get there because I've seen my other two do it. And one of the things I told them from really young when they started reading was if you can read, you can learn anything. Go to the library, decide what you want to learn about, decide what you want to do.
Marsha (13:58.03)
Right?
Ryann (14:01.959)
And you can literally do anything if you love to read. And so I've loved really, and I'm a lifelong learner. And I do really credit some of that to being a Montessori kid. I also was able to kind of hack the traditional system. And I was going through in the 80s and 90s. And I think it was a little different then also. We still had play kitchens in kindergarten. We still were a little play-based just naturally.
Marsha (14:14.392)
Really.
Ryann (14:30.395)
Now I heard some years ago they took play kitchens out of kindergarten rooms. I'm like, how can that even be? How can that be? And so we found luckily a play-based preschool for our kids. And so that was the foundation that we got to set for them. And so I see them in comparison to maybe some of the kids who've gone to traditional school and how the parents too are very focused on, look at this math they can do.
look at this grammar, look at this, you know, X, Y, Z. And I'm like, who cares if they don't want to learn? the pressure. Yeah.
Marsha (15:04.184)
The pressure. Yeah, my gosh, the pressure they put on those kids. Remember about 10 years ago, there was a book that came out called Tiger Mom? Remember that? And she was touting the Chinese attitude of you gotta push everything on the kids and force them to do everything and they'll really, really achieve. Of course, I thought it was a little hypocritical since the dad was Jewish, okay?
Ryann (15:13.863)
Yeah. Yep.
Marsha (15:31.82)
Now Jewish people don't necessarily treat their children like that and yet they have amazing outcomes. Given the numbers in the population, they're just amazingly high achievers, right? But they don't approach it the way the Chinese do. But the Chinese attitude, this attitude of, we have to compete with everybody else in the world, we have to get into the best possible, highly rated college in the world or else we're not going to succeed.
Ryann (15:31.88)
Mm-hmm.
Ryann (15:43.198)
Yeah.
Marsha (16:00.162)
gets these parents so that they're, you when they're three years old, they're pushing them into all kinds of math programs. Not that children can't learn math at three, but not the way that they're talking about, you know, because in a Montessori school, we have amazing math materials so that children can do arithmetic into the thousands on their own, but it's using materials. It's not writing things down, it's not using the numbers, it's not memorizing things. And in fact, what happens is the children...
We have literally hundreds of math materials in the Montessori program. They learn the depth of math, the foundation of it, the real world embodiment of math so that when they grow up, they understand it so much better than a child that's just been taught how to, what's called do the algorithms, like, just memorize how to do multiplication, division, and anything like that.
Ryann (16:54.395)
Right, it's more conceptual. of my favorite Montessori materials is the beads. And so there's a one bead, there's a 10 bead. And yes, and then there's like 100 square, and then there's a cube that's 1,000. Yes. And to me, even as a 42-year-old woman, I'm like, yes, that makes so much sense to me. My brain feels like.
Marsha (17:01.752)
That's what I'm talking about.
Square thousand two right right.
Ryann (17:19.254)
I can see it. And so it's true. It's like, it's real. It's so tangible, you know?
Marsha (17:20.812)
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Right. You're seeing squaring and cubing. You're seeing what that means right there. Right.
Ryann (17:28.787)
Yes, it's so cool. It's so cool. Okay, so you said the word competition. Once we had a well-meaning family member, because we've gone alternative, my oldest is 10, about to be 11, they're now doing a Waldorf education program, which we love, which is a little different. And whenever we say Waldorf, people haven't heard about it. And they say, is that like Montessori? And I say, no, it's not, but it's a philosophy, right? Based on Rudolf Steiner. And, you said a word competition.
when we were talking about these hyper competitive parents who really want to show off their kids. And I think some of it is like, it's almost like dance mom. We're living through our kids success and that's a whole nother thing. But one time a well-meaning family member said, well, your kids don't take tests? How do you know how they compare to another kid? And we were like, that's the whole point.
We don't care how they compare to another kid. We want to individualize their learning and their education so much so, so they just like know really who they are and what they love and what their strengths are. Are they gonna have challenges? Of course they are. Like, but they also are so self-aware in what they're really good at. I think that really helps them as they grow.
Right? To really know like, hey, this is for me and this is not. So what's your take on that? Because parents, think, are thinking about like, how are they going to be happy, healthy citizens? not even healthy. How are they going to be happy, productive citizens? That's what I think kind of that root model is in the US. How will they be productive? How will they produce? How will they go and be a CEO? How will they make a million dollars? Like, so what's your take on like watching our kids grow into who they're meant to be versus who they want, who we want them to be?
Marsha (19:03.63)
Exactly.
Marsha (19:20.108)
You know, the people who are hyper-focused on competition, whether they're going to be able to get into Harvard or Yale, they're looking at a certain kind of model of how can they get into the top echelons of the corporate world, of the banking world, or anything like that, network for that. But
Fortunately, our country is amazing in that we can be entrepreneurs. We can do all kinds of things. We can forge our own path. And nowadays, it seems like there's even more and more interest in being entrepreneurs as people see corporations laying off people and all the changes with the AI and everything else. I think if a person is very
self-aware and knowledgeable about the world and has a tremendous work ethic and motivation, they're going to figure out what they can do to be productive. And of course, you're going to want to help them along the way. You're going to want to expose them to lots of different possibilities. So after the Montessori School, I created this summer program called the Great Connections for 16 to 24 year olds. I've been running that for 16 years.
One of the things I'm very concerned about is that young people tend to know only what they grew up with. They don't know all the possibilities in the world. So I like to bring in accomplished.
professionals who love what they do and can talk to them about their career, how they got into it, and every other thing. And it's so interesting to see what happens because, for example, last year we visited a yacht yard here in Chicago on the south side of Chicago. It was a huge place. They have hundreds of boats that they store there. the story is something that most people wouldn't know about, right, unless you were involved with boating.
Marsha (21:25.662)
The story of how the man who owns it got started was amazingly interesting because he had done this, he had done that, anyway. But the idea is find out what the opportunities are. Be knowledgeable about that. And of course, if a child becomes a young person who's very ambitious and motivated themselves, they can learn about that. They can find out those things.
I really recommend that people like what you're talking about get to know themselves, know their strengths, their weaknesses, their interests, develop a good work ethic. That's really important. Be conscientious. Being conscientious is one of the most important characteristics for somebody to succeed in their professional life and in their personal life. So all of those things are what's really important. And then there's opportunities out there.
Ryann (22:21.844)
So how do we be conscientious adults, parents, educators?
Marsha (22:28.642)
Well, that's being conscientious means to be very tuned into what the children need and constantly be asking yourself, I providing them the kind of learning environment that will help them thrive? And seeing, doing experiments. I mean, this is something that Montessori did when she was developing her.
Method was she would do different experiments with the kids. She would change the conditions She would she would add materials. She would take materials out. She would rearrange the room She tried all the kinds of different things to see what really helped them learn the best and we can do that at home, too You know, I know you have a lot of homeschool parents There's a lot of
available for homeschool parents if they want to both learn the Montessori philosophy and incorporate it in what they do with their own children and get materials, work with other people who are in the other Montessori homeschoolers. I know that they are available. So I think that just being very vigilant about, what am I doing? What is my goal? And watching as I go along what's happening with the children.
Ryann (23:43.561)
Yeah, so I'm hearing you say, and this is kind of the path less traveled, right? I'm hearing you say that we as parents have a really big stake, whether they're public schooled, homeschooled, private schooled, we have a really big stake on their growth and their learning. And we can play a really big part, even if they spend six to eight hours a day at a school, we can create the home environment as such.
so that they get to explore their different interests. They get to play with the idea of making a business. They get to really like go after what they're interested in. So for us as parents, it takes a little bit more of awareness and steps to bring them to the library, to show them what's out there in the world. I love that you brought a group of older students to see this yacht yard, because what you're talking about is like,
We don't know something's possible. Our subconscious doesn't think it's possible until we see it. And this is a principle of manifestation. This is, if we see it, we believe it. And so showing these kids or learners that look at what this person did based on an interest and look at, I'm sure, all the challenges and then successes that they had along the way because success is not linear. And so really just being real with these kids of like,
The sky's the limit, like this limitlessness that's available to our kids. I love that what you're teaching about and what you're talking about really incorporates that end.
Marsha (25:19.118)
Thank you. Yeah, and you know, one of the dangers these days is we have such a wealthy society that there's not the same kind of challenges to people. I mean, when you had to put food on the table or you were going to starve, you were very motivated, right? Now we have so many opportunities that I think people can get lost in it. They can't figure out, okay, I could do this or could do that. they can't focus on, well, what is really...
going to motivate me and be successful for me. And that's why seeing all these different examples is really good, because you can see what other people did and what's possible. there was some thought I had when you were talking. Maybe you'll come back to me. Anyway. Yeah.
Ryann (26:07.092)
Tell me if it does. Yeah, we can circle back around to it. Yeah, I think that's really cool. And I think there was a study done or perhaps this is just like, you know, observational, but we see in society the kids or the young people who get the inheritance or the trust or the money handed down or the business handed down. And we see them kind of not be able to reach that.
success level. And when I say success, I'm always talking about holistic success. Are you happy? Do you have connected relationships and that kind of a thing. But we see them not be able to succeed. And it's because they've never had to really develop that grit muscle or they've never really had to work or go through any challenge. If you grow up thinking, oh, I can't go through any challenge because mommy and daddy handed me everything.
on the silver platter and they kept me away from the challenges and the hard parts of life, then you're gonna have a kid who becomes an adult who grows up, who shrinks down at the first, like, you know, sense of struggle.
Marsha (27:16.184)
Exactly. you hit on an important point, which is that parents need to give children not only challenges, intellectual challenges, but they need to have practical challenges too, so that they can learn how to do things and not provide everything for them. Because then when they grow up, and not helicopter them. I mean, we know about that these days. All the parents that are
hanging over every little thing that the child does. And you know, it's interesting. I don't know if your audience is aware of this group called Let Grow. It was originally called Free Range Kids.
Ryann (27:59.389)
Lenore, yes, yep.
Marsha (28:00.884)
Yeah, well, Norris Gnazy. I saw an article she wrote the other day, actually months ago, about this whole concern about phones and children being so obsessed with their phones instead of actually interacting with each other or doing things in the world. And one of the outcomes of the research was that if they had the opportunity to have unsupervised interactions with other young people.
they would much rather have that than be on their phone. And so what that indicates to me is the parents are helicoptering them too much. And so they retreat to a private world on the phone. Because when you're an adolescent, one of the main things you want to develop is your social relationships with other people. It's interesting. There's a whole five millimeters of cortex that the child develops when they go through puberty. And it's in the part of your brain.
Ryann (28:41.674)
Mm.
Marsha (28:58.796)
that makes decisions and brings all the information together and it's also in the social part of your brain. So you can see what happens. of course they go through adolescence, they wanna make all their own decisions and they want to be constantly interacting with their peers. They're trying to exercise their new brain, right? So anyway, but it's a, we used to, gosh, when I was a kid, you'd go out in the morning and you'd just play in the neighborhood, right?
Ryann (29:18.353)
Wow.
Marsha (29:27.52)
And then you'd come home for lunch and then you'd go out in the afternoon. Mom didn't know exactly where you were, but you were around, you were with your friends, and you had a lot of adventures. And there's been a decrease in that partly through all this scare that happened, started happening in the 80s, which turns out all these missing children turn out, most of them, like the vast, vast, vast majority, like a minuscule amount are,
kidnapped by strangers, everybody else it was divorced parents. That's what happened, you know.
Ryann (29:59.68)
Yep. I'm so glad you said that, because we get these amber alerts here in Florida. And it's so like, it's like, my god. But then you find out it is some sort of like a strange parent or like a step-parent situation. And it's like, thank god. But the world is actually getting safer. And it's because of this clickbait 24-hour news cycle, this, you know, I do believe there are like
dark and nefarious agendas that play somewhere out there. And we're not going to let our kids go outside because of it. It doesn't add up to me. We have to give them some sort of independence. Go walk around the block. Go do this. I'm actually in a book club right now for the anxious generation. I'm sure you know Jonathan Haidt's work.
Marsha (30:52.428)
That's what Lenore was referring to when she went in that all that research.
Ryann (30:55.539)
Great. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, we so far are at no phone house. mean, my oldest is only almost 11. So it's not even a conversation yet. Like it's not even in the realm of possibility yet. And I go out in our community and we were riding bikes the other day in the neighborhood and a kid who looked really young. was a girl.
and she was all done up and she was younger than 10. She was probably like seven, eight. She had this phone holding it in like selfie position, making this this face to the phone. And I'm just like, And I try not to like do this like judgment thing because I get like as parents we're busy and we need to work and we wanna do things and we wanna talk to our spouse and.
Marsha (31:35.074)
Yeah.
Ryann (31:47.424)
Like, and so I get that it's like an easy button for some people, but if you look at society right now, if you go out to any public place and you see what the kids are doing on this phone, it's not healthy if we really like peeled back the layers of it. And so this is just like that gentle invite to, you know, wonder what the alternative could be, right? There's gotta be an alternative and we can help.
bridge and create those social relationships. I love getting to know my kids, friends, parents, right? I love like, and then once we get to know people, like people aren't scary, know, people are just regular. They're trying to do the best they can. And like we can trade kids and have them go here and have them run around in the neighborhood. So I'm totally on par with that. I think I'm curious if you could like wave a magic wand and see
every classroom in the United States incorporate one thing that would really make a difference for as like kids get older and they come to your college like what would be that thing the one thing
Marsha (33:00.766)
One thing, I don't know. One thing, get rid of all that standardized testing.
Ryann (33:01.927)
Yeah, I mean, I know there's a lot. Right.
Yeah, interesting. Why so? Tell me more about that.
Marsha (33:11.298)
because it makes the teachers and the whole administration conform to the test instead of actually to what the children need to learn. I've just seen it in so many schools because their money is coming from the scores on the test.
Ryann (33:27.999)
Yep. Yep. It's so unfortunate. So as busy parents, busy educators, like out there wondering like, how do I really set my child up to know themselves? How do I really set my child up for success, for being true to who they are, know, following their interests? Like what's one thing we can do even just around the dinner table at home? Like, is it asking open-ended questions? Is it like,
really encouraging our kids to use their voice, which isn't easy all the time. Like what is that thing that we can do as parents to really like build them up?
Marsha (34:15.87)
Answer their questions. Encourage their interests. Require them to be responsible, whether it's they have to put their clothes away in their drawers or something like that. Help them learn. Give them the opportunities to learn at home all kinds of skills that you might not think little children were capable of, but it turns out they are.
and try to find as many interesting things to expose them to as possible so they can see what's, they learn what they're particularly interested in and they can see all these possibilities in the world. And the other thing is have high expectations for them. Like convey your own expectations but without.
the pressure that they have to do x, or z.
Ryann (35:17.183)
Yeah. So reducing the pressure on them. And it's so funny because I catch myself doing this, especially when it's related to a meltdown in public. If my kid's having a hard time in public, I have quite a bit of self-awareness at this point. And I feel myself kind of feeling like I need to punish them or say a very stern thing because there's other people watching.
Marsha (35:46.434)
watching. Yeah.
Ryann (35:47.38)
Yeah, because at home it's different. We're just a little more free and we just we don't worry about eyeballs being on us. But in public, like I put a little bit more, you know what it is? It's self induced pressure on me and then that drips down to them, you know?
Marsha (36:02.222)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, you got to keep reminding yourself. What do those other people know? Do they understand the circumstances? You don't know, you know, you know, there's a great book. It's quite it's quite a few years old now, but I highly recommend it to parents. It's called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk. And even if you just get it to look at the cartoons, they have a great set of cartoons in it about.
Ryann (36:11.328)
Yeah.
Marsha (36:30.21)
the one way to talk to the child that's not productive and another way that is, and it's especially great for the kind of circumstances you're talking about where the child's having them all down in public or something like that. But it also has the principles that this book teaches are also good for even interacting with other adults in emotional situations. So that can be very useful.
Yeah, you know, I wanted to say something going back to what you were saying about if one thing I could do to change things, maybe a different way of putting it is to.
So back in 1990, Brookings Institute did a study on what kinds of schools were the most successful for children. And they looked at urban, suburban, country, private, public, everything, charter schools and all this. And what they found out was if a school was locally controlled, then the children were served so much better than if it was in a big district where there were, you know,
orders coming from on high or from the Department of Education. So a different way of saying get rid of the standardized tests would be get make the schools locally controlled so that each area can figure out what do they think would be best to do.
Ryann (37:58.829)
Yeah, I love that way of saying it. Since 2020 in Florida, we've had this explosion of micro schools and homeschool co-ops. And it's the coolest thing to watch. We homeschooled for three years during that time period. And the best decision for everybody, including myself, was for the kids to go back to school. And that's OK. But I'm still really interconnected with this micro schooling kind of
Marsha (38:14.104)
Mm-hmm.
Ryann (38:28.172)
culture that we have here and it's so cool because it's just controlled by the director who has very close relationships with the families and these families are creating this new way to learn where testing is not involved and you know we really get to personalize things like based on what our kids are interested in and how they can really really grow.
Marsha (38:43.886)
Mm-hmm.
Marsha (38:53.944)
Thank you.
Ryann (38:56.586)
and thrive, and it's the coolest thing to watch.
Marsha (38:59.21)
Exactly. I think the fact, the best thing that came out of the pandemic was that parents found out what was going on at school, which, you know, I could be like Cassandra telling them about it for years before and they're like, no, everything's fine, you know. And then they saw what was actually being taught and they're like, my gosh, I don't want that for my child. So the development of all these alternatives is fantastic. And the micro school, I mean, talk about local control, there you've got
really great local controllers, very specific.
Ryann (39:31.659)
Yeah, so cool. I love that. So I think this conversation also really weaves into as adults. Like, I know me. I reflect on my educational experience. I say that I always tell this story. Like, when my kids first started at this Playbase preschool, I only had two kids at that point. And my middle one was like not even two yet.
And I went and it was just like, it was basically like a mommy and me. Like I stayed at school with this, you know, my almost two year old. And I saw for a week, maybe two weeks, how the teachers spoke to the kids and how the teachers interacted with each other and how, you know, the kids had invitations on what they chose to learn and how.
There was so much outdoor time and it was really actually kind of like free range. You could go in, you could go out, you could lay down, you could read a book, you could do dress up. Like was just this beautiful little bubble. And there was so much learning happen, so much learning happening still amidst like what may be to the outside eye looked like chaos. But I approached our beloved director who's actually since passed on, Susan Crusoe. She was just the
heart and mind behind this beautiful school. And I approached her with tears in my eyes and I said, Susan, like the world would be different if everybody attended a preschool like this. The world would be different, you know, so different. And so it was then that I really started to look back on my life. Okay, who were the teachers that really impacted me? What were the years in school that I really just like felt so fulfilled and
Marsha (41:05.1)
Yeah, it's so different.
Ryann (41:21.77)
There are only like less than a handful of those experiences in my mind. And so for an adult right now who's listening, who's reflecting back on her experience being educated, what's the first step you would tell her into like to unlearn maybe what she learned about her limits and how she can't follow her interests or pursue her passions? What would you tell her?
Marsha (41:43.598)
you
Marsha (41:50.606)
Mmm.
Marsha (41:54.137)
Well, she's here and she wants to learn something different, we're assuming, right? Yeah, would recommend that she look at some, there's so many videos online now about Montessori programs, about child-centered learning and books about it. yeah, what.
What's the best thing to help a person like that overcome their uncertainty about changing what they're doing, right? So they can feel more calm, more certain that not doing things the way everybody else is doing is fine. I guess maybe because she's here, she already thinks that. then, yeah, so then it's a matter of exploring.
the kinds of books, the kinds of videos. I would go look at different schools. That's something that I think is very eye-opening, is when you go and see what's happening at a school. I Montessori schools welcome visitors to observe the way things are occurring there. And one of the things that many people will say after they come into a Montessori school is children are so engaged and happy in what they're doing.
and capable of coming up to an adult and talking to them in a very comfortable manner, it's quite a different experience. you know, see what's going on at the different schools and that will help you become more convinced that not doing what everybody else is doing is a good thing.
Ryann (43:40.235)
Yeah, if you walk into a Montessori classroom, my son, our son attended one last year for a bit while we transitioned to a new school. And I've observed other Montessori classrooms, but these classrooms have 24 kids in them. They're very big, but they have four teachers. And you walk in and there's 24 kids and it sounds like there's like six kids. It's just, it's very calm. And I like looked at the director. I'm like,
Everybody's just like doing their work. Like everybody's just like calm and relaxed and it's quiet and the vibe is just so lovely. So I love that that's one of the steps you take. And I would add to that too, Marsha, because for some reason, as my kids have grown, I've like felt a little piece of myself being able to relive like whatever age they're at and kind of like live vicariously a little bit, like in a healthy way through their ages and really reflect
on my inner girl and rewrite that story in a sense. Yeah, so I really, yeah, yeah, I invite people to do that too if that feels right. So please tell us all about Reliance College and how we can find out about the awesome work that your learners are doing there and what it's all about.
Marsha (44:41.582)
Mm-hmm. That's a good point. That's a good point.
Marsha (45:00.766)
thank you. Well, just to make clear, it's not open yet. Yeah, it's not open yet. Right. Right. We have the structure. We've got the curriculum. We've got most of the paperwork done for the state of Illinois. We're still raising the capital for it. But it's based on this program that I started 16 years ago called the Great Connections, which is a week long summer program in which
Ryann (45:04.256)
OK. This is the vision. OK, you've just got the vision so far. OK, cool.
Marsha (45:29.126)
because my own interest was always teaching young adults. So I started this program and also I could see what was going on with the colleges years ago. mean 30, 40 years ago, I knew what was going on with the colleges and I knew it was just going to get worse and worse.
Ryann (45:45.812)
What, and will you, can we unpack that a little bit because I'm assuming what you're saying, what's going on with the colleges, but can we enlighten people who might not be sure?
Marsha (45:53.665)
Sure. Well, number one, students are not really being educated on subjects very well at all. Over almost over the whole nation, there's a certain ideology that the professory is pushing in all their classes. so the students, students are coming out really ignorant about history, not necessarily knowing how to do math well.
not writing well, mean, all kinds of things like that, not being so coddled throughout their college experience that they're not ready for working in the world and being productive, and not learning how to think. I mean, that's a major thing. There's been an intellectual attack on reasoning that happened decades ago and that has now infiltrated the whole of
Ryann (46:34.923)
Okay.
Marsha (46:51.082)
academia and the teaching profession. there's no really right and wrong, there's no true or false, that it's all a matter of opinion and that it's what society tells you is right and wrong. This is like super undermining, on top of which, nobody actually lives like that. Because if there is no right and wrong, then you still are not going to step out in front of a truck, right?
if there is no true and false. the students are very under-educated in how to think and how to look at what is the evidence for an idea, what is the reasoning that went into that idea, what is the connection of that idea to the world, what's the outcome? If you take an idea and you use it in your life, what's going to be the result? They're very uneducated about that.
It's a disaster. So I'm really concerned about that. started this program in 2009. I put everything I knew. brought Montessori philosophy of education in the sense of what does a person need at this level of their development? 16 to 24. This is what a genius Montessori was. She figured out the last level plane of development was 16 years old to 24 years old. Recent research has shown that the brain grows until you're about 24. So.
But she was so amazing at being able to see things from direct observation. She was such a great at being so objective about what she saw. So anyway, I everything I knew about, what does a person at this level of development need? How can I help them learn how to be as independent as possible? How to think really well? How to understand the connection of ideas with the world? And I made this program. We use a specialized form of what's called a Socratic seminar.
Now in a Socratic seminar, you have a common reading that you've done, but the teacher is there to guide the students in how to understand the material themselves by using their own questions. What's confusing about it? What don't they understand? What is the connection between this part of the text and that part of the text? What's the connection between what the author is saying here and what's going on in the world? And the teacher guides the students about that. But in our form,
Marsha (49:18.146)
we do two things very specifically that make it extra powerful. One is we require that the students use reason and evidence for anything that they have to say. And the other thing is we require that they listen very carefully to what the other people are saying and respond to it and make it a continuous dialogue. So they become very learned in how to
have a productive conversation with other people, but using reason and evidence. So they have to go to the text and say, okay, I think this and look at this passage. This is where the author says this and this is why I think it. And then the other person responds to that. So you get a very productive dialogue so that in the end people really understand what the author said. And this tremendously strengthens your ability to think for yourself because
Now you have the tools about doing that. We also teach, for example, about logical fallacies. In other words, what are the typical ways that people err when they try to come to a logical conclusion or they make a conclusion so you can be kind of aware of that, of what going on? You can listen to some news programs say, this guy is arguing from the majority. In other words, he's not giving real evidence. He's just saying, everybody believes that. And that's his argument. That's not a reason, right?
If you think it's a reason, you have to connect the dots. Why does the majority think this? Do they have a good reason to think this? What's the conclusion from that?
Ryann (50:58.933)
Isn't that all we see on the news right now is just people kind of spouting off like kind of like things like that that are just emotional based and really aren't quite backed up by facts and if they are they're certainly not listing any resources, right?
Marsha (51:08.727)
Yes.
Marsha (51:14.274)
Yes, exactly. And what you want to do is be able to engage your emotions, but have them based on something that's real so that you're not just following the crowd. You're not the sheep following the crowd because that's not going to give you a good life. I mean, think of all the people who followed the crowd and they end up dead. Right?
Ryann (51:22.486)
Yeah.
Ryann (51:32.077)
It's not.
Ryann (51:36.172)
Right. Wow. That is just like the perfect place to land this plane because, know, it in a nutshell, it's we're not raising kids to follow the crowd. We're not, you know, we're not raising kids who are just like the neighbor down the street or who can fit in one box. There are like so many unique personalities and interests and that's just, I love it. Beautiful. Okay. So.
Marsha (51:49.059)
Right.
Ryann (52:06.187)
Let me see, I think I might have one question for, one more question for you. Okay. So if the beautiful souls with us right now could take one thing they learned today, home with them, to really, really change the world by starting at home, what would that be?
Marsha (52:26.582)
One thing,
Marsha (52:30.584)
Well.
Make yourself aware of what children need. pay a lot of attention to that when you're dealing with them. Because almost any time that a child acts out or does something you think is negative, it's because they're trying to fulfill some need that they have. And can you change the circumstances so that they can get what they need but still
behave in a way that's appropriate. But that's true for learning too.
Ryann (53:04.577)
Yeah. What a breath. Yes. What a breath of fresh air. Thank you so much for your work and for being here, Marsha. I love how we were reminded today that education isn't just something we receive. It's something we choose to continue. Whether you're raising kids or raising your own awareness, this conversation is a beautiful reminder that freedom starts in our own minds.
Marsha (53:12.856)
Thank you.
Ryann (53:30.527)
and that curiosity, courage, and connection is what truly creates independent thinkers. You can learn more about Marsha's work at reliancecollege.org and check out the Great Connections seminar if you're curious about an alternative education path that actually changes lives. And if today's episode sparked something in you, maybe a new question or a sense of possibility, share it with a friend or tag me on Instagram at Raising Well and Hearts so I can celebrate you.
Of course, make sure you're following the podcast so you get notified when new episodes come out. And until next time, go love someone well.
Ryann (54:06.498)
Thank you so much.
