Empathy in Leadership with Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller

This week on Raising Wild Hearts, I'm sitting down with Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller for an impactful conversation on empathy in leadership and why it’s improving workplace culture worldwide.

Want to inspire your team? How about motivate your kids? Or maybe you just need  to be a better communicator? Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller challenges the authoritarian control system that once supercharged businesses and corporations.

Today, we’ll find out: Is EQ the solution to modern leadership challenges?

Listen Here:

We're diving deep into the cost of empathy missing in leadership training and inspiration on how to be a great leader—one that people actually want to follow.  Dr. Melissa and I unpack why empathy is the #1 skill for the future and how true empathy requires courage. 

This is a beautiful invitation to look inward first, master your self-leadership, and finally create the psychological safety and trust that allows everyone around you—from your children to your colleagues—to thrive.

If you’re ready to trade in the exhausted, ego-driven hustle for a powerful, heart-led leadership legacy, this episode is required listening.

In this episode, you'll learn: 

Why Emotional Intelligence (EQ) is a huge factor in business success

• Can empathy be learned? 

• Why self-leadership is the key to all professional and personal growth 

• How career development depends on soft skills and drives results in business 
  

Chapters

00:00 The Power of Empathy in Leadership

04:57 Setting Boundaries with Empathy

10:33 Self-Awareness and Leadership

15:30 The Importance of Presence in Leadership

20:51 Understanding Empathy Beyond Feelings

23:00 Focusing on Self and Personal Growth

25:08 The Intersection of Home and Leadership

27:54 Empathy as a Leadership Skill

29:31 The Future of Leadership in an AI World

31:09 Teaching Empathy to the Next Generation

34:31 The Art of Public Speaking

36:51 The Empathetic Leader: A Movement Begins

Up Next: Core Confidence with Loni Markman

Resources: The ‘Best Books of All Time’ Curated Booklist for Mindful Moms and Conscious Parents

Full transcript of this conversation with Ryann Watkin and Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller:

Ryann (00:01.016)

Hi Melissa, welcome to the Raising Wild Hearts podcast.

Dr. Melissa (00:04.613)

Thank you so much for having me here today, Ryan. I'm so excited to talk to you and we have a lot in common, so this is gonna be fun.

Ryann (00:11.742)

Yes, we do. And yes, it is. I'm so excited because I love the intersection of empathy and leadership, which is where you hang out. It sounds like most of the time. And you are on a mission, Melissa, to prove that the so-called soft skills are the ones driving the hard results. And the future of leadership depends on them. When I read that sentence, I was like, wow.

That's a big claim, so let's start there. Let's unpack that mission of yours.

Dr. Melissa (00:43.195)

You got it. So, I mean, wherever you want to start, it is a big thing. There's a lot to it. So, but I really do believe it. And the more we get into things that don't have soft skills like AI and big tech and some of the, you know, super large global conglomerations that it becomes difficult to have empathy because of their size, the more I'm absolutely convinced that...

the leaders that are going to be the superstars of the future are going to be the ones that can actually finally get their arms around this concept.

Ryann (01:16.588)

Yeah, and there's a big like kind of something that we get wrong that empathy is soft and that it's weak and that it's not valuable. So how actually in the long run is it valuable? How does it drive like the results and the bottom line and everybody in the business world, not to mention the entire world wants to see, right? We want to see results on paper. We want the gold stars. We want to know that our effort is worth it. So

Why are we getting it wrong? Why are we thinking that it's soft or not a big deal or, you know, kind of like, then we'll be loosey goosey. You know what I mean?

Dr. Melissa (01:55.099)

Yeah, well let's start with the soft question because that's a really good one and that's a myth that's out there. Because first of all, people have this idea that empathy is only about feeling, but it's not. Empathy is about being able to take the other person's perspective. mean, for instance, mean, empathy, we've been talking about it really as a discipline since like the early 1900s. And in that amount of time, there's a researcher who said he was able to come up with 43 different discrete kinds of empathy that fall into eight categories.

So to say it's only about feeling is really narrowing what it's about. So when we talk about empathy, we're talking about connection and understanding and being able to take the other person's perspective. So to say that that's soft because it deals with feeling, well, that myth goes right out the window right there when you actually have a solid definition. The other thing is in order to take the other person's perspective, you have to be vulnerable to taking on that perspective to a certain degree, right?

I mean, the three kinds of empathy that I deal with particularly are emotional empathy, which is the I feel what you feel one, because that's important for perspective taking. There's cognitive empathy, which means I logically understand what you feel. I just don't feel anything, which is the one I actually talk to leaders about the most, because when you take on a lot of emotion, that's when you start dealing with things like burnout and empathy fatigue. And that's those are problems. The third one I talk about is self empathy.

Because if we are unable to understand and connect to ourselves, how can we possibly expect to understand and connect with anybody else? Well, to be able to take on someone else's perspective takes courage because you know, for instance, if you're talking to someone who's in deep grief and you're trying to see their perspective, you're probably going to feel that grief. And that takes courage because you know what you're walking into. You know, if you're actually trying to take the perspective of other people so that you can take them into consideration in your decisions as a leader.

you're opening yourself up to really understanding and that takes courage. It takes a lot less courage to just gloss over it and say, well, this is how we do it because we've always done it. So, you know, it actually takes more courage than less. So.

Ryann (03:58.764)

Yeah, I love that. Okay, so I was talking to somebody the other day and I mentioned to her, like, do you think empaths are drawn to narcissists? Do you think, like we were just started talking about empaths and she said, I don't believe there is such a thing as empath. I believe that people don't have good enough boundaries and that they take on other people's feelings. And so,

There's this sense of like, ooh, my gosh, if I have to go there and feel this grief with this person or to go there and feel this frustration with this person, how do I understand where I start and they stop kind of thing? Like, how do we keep those healthy boundaries, so to speak, when we're feeling what someone else is feeling?

Dr. Melissa (04:47.963)

Well, first of all, having empathy doesn't mean you don't have boundaries. So I absolutely agree with what that person is saying that having those boundaries, I would say is even more important because you don't want to end up entangled in all of this and you can, know, logically, emotionally, affectively, it just, don't, it's not good. That's when you really do end up with empathy fatigue. And once you end up there, it's hard to feel much for anybody. So I mean,

Ryann (04:55.488)

huh.

Ryann (05:02.689)

Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (05:17.455)

Boundaries with empathy is like boundaries at any other place. You have to know where you say, this is where I stop. I'm willing to give this much of myself and no more. I'm willing to allow people to push up to this point and no more. And then you have to do the hard part, which is that you have to actually stick to those boundaries. It can be very easy to let people push past those boundaries. And that's then when you're getting into people pleasing and getting yourself entangled in these things where you're really only going to hurt yourself.

Ryann (05:34.442)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Melissa (05:46.426)

So we're still dealing with healthy boundary setting, which means stopping to think, you know, now we're back to self empathy. What do I need? Where do I connect with myself? How do I understand this situation and where am I at a point that I'm not willing to go any further? And then honoring yourself and your self empathy and saying, that's my boundary. I understand you're having a hard time. I understand that this is really difficult, but this is where my boundaries are at and I cannot get entangled in this. Because if you're not a healthy together connected

person, you can't help anybody else. And that's doubly true for leaders because they're responsible to everybody.

Ryann (06:23.627)

Yeah. So I'm hearing you say that there is an immense amount of self-awareness that has to be in the picture. So for somebody who's new at leadership or considering the idea of empathy and kind of considering what we're saying and they're like, huh, hmm, I wonder if I, or they start exploring kind of their role in leadership or whatever it might be, where would you tell them to start kind of like

paying attention to what they're feeling, what their boundaries might be, where they start and someone else stops, et cetera. How do we start to become self-aware?

Dr. Melissa (07:04.261)

So when I actually teach self empathy, I teach it in four steps. The first one is observation. And that means actually stepping outside of yourself to be able to see what you're doing, how you're reacting, and to do it without judgment. Empathy and judgment cannot exist in the same space, ever. So you have to be able to look at yourself and be critical, not caring. What am I doing? How am I doing it? What triggers it?

How does this come up? Is there a person? Is there a situation? Is there something, right? So you're just observing, you're gathering data. You're doing it without getting emotionally wrapped up in it. From there, it leads to self-reflection, which is where you turn the lens inward and you start to begin to ask yourself, why do I think I respond like this? What are the feelings that come up with this person when they trigger me? Why is it that I am unwilling to give the performance reviews that people need?

What is it in me that's causing this people pleasing? And it takes a little bit of effort. I mean, I'm not suggesting that people need to spend days and days, you know, navel gazing, but you do have to be upfront and say, yes, this is what's happening. Once you turn the lens inward, then you turn the lens outward, and that's self-awareness. How do I plug into the world? How do I affect the world? So first you look at how do I affect me?

And then you say, how do I affect those around me? This is especially important for leaders because they have to be able to be within that environment and do the things that they need to do effectively. So their interplay with the environment is the biggest part of that leadership role. Then once you have all of that in place and you're doing it every day, because this is a practice, not a performance. Practice is something you do day after day. Performance is something you do one time.

Now you can start to get self-empathy, the understanding of why you do things, the connection of yourself to the environment, beginning to show yourself the grace and the mercy that you deserve as much as anybody else. So that's how I break that down.

Ryann (09:10.433)

Yeah. Okay. I was recently in a work environment in a business partnership that I realized was really bad for me in a number of different ways. upon observation and reflection, well, initially I wanted to point the finger and I wanted to point the finger at the leadership in the company. I wanted to point the finger out.

and say, you you did this, you didn't do that. And then after some self-reflection, I really was like, okay, what part did I play in this, right? Perhaps I consented to, you know, stretching the amount of time I was there. Perhaps I consented to, you know, not having my contract fulfilled and let that, you know, kind of.

swept it under the rug, so to speak. So I was letting manipulation and deceit kind of happen and kind of turning the other way. So these kind of things. And I went like, my gosh, well, I'm just as much of a part of it as this organization was or these people were. And it's really not a fun thing to kind of look within and go, huh, OK. This challenge that I had in my life, I played a part in that. And I consented to that. And I think.

most importantly for me, it's like, okay, now I get to learn from that. Like, wow, what an opportunity to learn about oneself, right? Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (10:42.917)

Yes, yes, totally. Because what I'm hearing from what you're saying is you had boundaries. You knew when they pushed past them, but you allowed them to push past those boundaries. So then as you're reflecting on this, now you can take that, okay, yeah, I let them push back my boundaries. Now the self-awareness, and this time I won't, so that this can be a healthy relationship. And if they continue to try and push past these boundaries, that's when there's a red flag that...

Ryann (10:51.411)

Mm-hmm. Correct.

Dr. Melissa (11:12.783)

this is an issue. So yeah, absolutely. mean, until you learn about yourself and know where you stand and where your boundaries are and how you do and don't interact with people, you can't begin to actually have an awareness of the world and your impact on everybody you touch.

Ryann (11:14.423)

Yep. Yep.

Ryann (11:24.215)

Yeah.

Ryann (11:30.424)

Totally. And you know what you said on LinkedIn actually, and this reminds me of what you said here, cause I have it written down. Leadership is a lot like dating. You've got red flags, beige flags, and yes, of course, green flags. But how often do we actually talk about what makes a leader worth following? So that's like, I love that question. And I wanna talk about following too, because I think following is a relevant conversation in a leadership conversation. But what I thought when I was like, the beige flags,

the red flags and the green flags, I saw and witnessed many orange, I called them orange, orange and red flags leading up to this agreement of getting into this partnership. And something as simple, and looking back I'm like, I should have known. Something as simple as being in the same room as someone and they're on their phone and you're having a conversation with them and they're actually not looking at you. Very simple, right? Happens.

Dr. Melissa (12:07.439)

you

Ryann (12:29.109)

a lot. But this, you know, happened from a supposed "leader" in this organization that I partnered with. And, you know, there were multiple little things like that. And as time went on, they became more and more and more. So like this little inner voice of myself was like tapping me on the shoulder being like, OK, you've seen the orange flags, you've seen the red flags, like, you know, like, come on, like you say you've seen it.

in your eyes. And so let's talk about maybe presence. Like I think presence, there's something so valuable in looking in someone's eyes, putting your phone down. I mean, this is simple stuff we do at home with our kids. Like put the phones up at a certain time when they're speaking, really try and look at them in their eyes. know, don't gloss over what they're saying. Like really kind of stand in the presence. So maybe from where you're standing, what does presence have to do?

with leadership and then let's dive into this beige flag, orange flag, red flag thing.

Dr. Melissa (13:29.435)

it has everything to do with leadership. The thing about being a leader is whether you like it or not, you are always on stage. So someone is always watching. Leaders talk a lot about culture. And like you talk about families, it happens in families, it happens in organizations, it happens in classrooms. We create a culture and you can either actively create the kind of culture you want or you can just step back and see what happens.

Now, if you're that leader that's going to be on the phone, that you're going to be distracted, that you're not paying attention, that your presence is everywhere than with your people, that's the culture you're creating. And if you want your people to emulate that culture because they are watching, someone is always watching, then that's the organization you're going to get. If you want an organization that actually takes time, that is present, whether with customers or with other employees or with you,

with attention and loyalty to what's going on, then you have to give it because you're setting the standard. And sometimes that's hard for leaders to wrap their head around. Well, nobody's paying attention to me. No, everyone's paying attention to you. You just never know who's watching.

Ryann (14:40.0)

Yeah, it's so true. So you said, how often do we actually talk about what makes a leader worth following? What does make a leader worth following? We all kind of have this feeling inside of us of like, that felt icky. I don't know if I like that. But then we've had the leaders who will do anything for. And so what is that standout factor for those leaders that make us

as let's call it followers, really want to kind of get in line and follow through with what they're doing. You what makes us want to do that? And what is it about them?

Dr. Melissa (15:20.965)

connection. If you have a leader that is connected, that understands, I mean that doesn't mean he needs to or he or she needs to understand every little minor detail of everybody's life, but they do try to connect and understand. Their employees know them, their employees like them, they don't have to be best friends but they like them, and their employees trust them because of that. And trust is what happens when words and actions align over time.

Ryann (15:32.523)

Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (15:51.012)

So those are the leaders that we want to follow because we're connected, they're connected, you know, we feel there's an understanding there and we know, and trust them to have our best interests in mind, to do the best they can, to have the best intent. See, the beautiful thing about empathy that people don't think about is that when it's working really well, it works in both directions. So as a leader, if you're giving empathy through this understanding and connection, you're going to get it back.

I mean, you've even said there are leaders that you would follow to the ends of the earth. You're probably giving them back the empathy that they gave you to begin with.

Ryann (16:22.775)

Totally.

Ryann (16:27.213)

Totally. I have one of my favorite leaders in mind when I worked on a college campus. He was my director and it was kind of like my first dip into like personal development. And he told me once, I was in my like early twenties. I was pretty young. This is a long time ago. And he said, Ryan, I want you to start a gratitude journal. And I'm like, what? You know, like, what are you talking about? And

It turns out over time, really started to, like it just unfolded where I started to see what he was talking about. When I had this gratitude daily, I showed up better, know, happier, kinder, right? More productive, not to mention. And people then wanted to follow me. It's interesting. I felt that he was molding me into being a leader.

by, you know, kind of like, you know, suggesting the gratitude journal. He didn't say you have to do this. He said like, what do you think about starting a gratitude journal kind of thing? And I was like, but I did it. And then, so those steps that he took, it was that in addition to like, hey, I've got a job that like only you can do. And I know that you're going to do this great. And here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? Like take this project and run with it. And there were so many things like that that he did so well.

Dr. Melissa (17:27.053)

Yeah.

Ryann (17:55.949)

And I'm so grateful to have had a really strong leader like that because I know that versus this situation that I was just in. I know that like, okay, there's something out there. There are people out there who lead like this. So this that I'm experiencing, it's just, it's not quite right. It's not gonna work, right? Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (18:17.583)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I mean, when you talk about, you know, the leaders that you're willing to follow, I think you're right. We do gloss over those those aspects like like him saying, you know, what about this? What about a gratitude journal? What do you think about this that would actually make you potentially a happier human being that, you know, all around, not just at work, you know? And I think that comes back to those flags that we were talking about earlier.

Because I think we actually catch a lot of things and our intuition, we call it intuition and like, this doesn't feel right, this feels yucky. But in reality, we're picking up these signals. It just may not be on a conscious level or we may be dismissing them as, well, it's work, that's just work. Well, no, that doesn't have to be work. And that's why we're here, because, you know, this should be a movement that work doesn't need to be like that, especially with the amount of time that we spend there. So, yeah, I think those flags are more important than people realize.

Ryann (19:09.952)

Right. Right.

Dr. Melissa (19:14.138)

You

Ryann (19:14.322)

so important. They're so important because I've been saying lately the little stuff becomes the big stuff, right? So there's lots of little moments that just add up time after time after time and I think like you know when you can and let's like turn the the arrow back to ourselves when we know like how we show up day after day the things we say we're gonna do that we

Dr. Melissa (19:20.859)

Yes.

Ryann (19:39.745)

Don't when we're living out of integrity, we know it when we show up and and do the whatever it is for you that is important for you to do in a day, right? For me, it's meditation and a walk and presence and sunshine and all these like very seemingly small things. But those small things add up to a good day. They add up to a positive attitude. They add up to like me showing up for the people I love because I've taken care of myself. Right.

Dr. Melissa (20:01.349)

Yes.

Dr. Melissa (20:10.527)

Yep. And I think, you know, whether we meant to or not, we're actually right back to boundaries. Because your boundaries are, these are the things I will do in a day that allow me to show up as a better person, as a better leader, as a better parent, as a better partner, as a better whatever. So you're saying, my boundaries are here, these are the things that I have to do. And going back to what you were talking about, you know, having somebody on their phone or these red flags, those are boundaries as well.

Ryann (20:16.043)

Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (20:39.631)

You know, because if you wouldn't accept someone tapping around on their phone when you're trying to have a conversation with them in public, why should you accept that in a work environment just because it happens to be a work environment? Your boundary says, this doesn't feel good to not be acknowledged as a human being and to have tech over me. It's there. It's still a relationship.

Ryann (21:03.05)

Yep. So do you think that everybody is a leader? And because when I look at like a group full of kids, I'm like, there's a lot of cooks in the kitchen here. I've got three kids, and under. like certain, you know, know, certain classes. There's a lot of chiefs. They're not, know, and and a lot of cooks in the kitchen. And so I'm like, hmm.

Can everybody here be a leader? And I don't know, like I play around with this question. Is everybody set to be a leader? Like, what's your take on that?

Dr. Melissa (21:39.164)

So, well let me start with the research. We'll start there and then I'll tell you what I think. So the research itself, we've gone from what was called the great man theory. I mean it was old so of course women couldn't even be leaders, right? Of course not. And by men we mean certain ethnicities as well. So that's where we began, right? Since that time we've come to the idea that leadership is something that can be learned.

Ryann (21:45.195)

Okay.

Ryann (21:54.014)

Of course. Of course.

Ryann (21:58.721)

Sure, right? Mm-hmm.

Dr. Melissa (22:07.939)

you know, utilized and trained. Now from what I've seen, I believe that this is true. However, in order to learn, you have to want to learn and you have to want to instill it. So like anything else, like any other behavior, this is going to exist on a spectrum, right? There's going to be some people that are going to be a lot more talented at it naturally than others. Do I think it's possible for everyone to learn them? Yes. Do I think everybody's going to put in the work and the effort?

that it takes to learn it? No.

Ryann (22:41.92)

Very, very interesting. That really helps me kind of answer this question in my mind because what I'm hearing you say is, yes, there are skills that can be learned, but the it factor, if you will, comes from the intrinsic motivation. That's what I heard. The person who might know that, right? Yeah. So, okay, that's so interesting. Love that.

Dr. Melissa (22:44.827)

You

Dr. Melissa (22:59.599)

Yes, and they can learn it. It is possible.

Ryann (23:11.794)

Okay. Well, I'm trying to figure out where I want to go here. Let me mark that down. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Okay. I'm curious, what do most people get wrong about empathy specifically? Like, what are we walking around getting wrong about it a lot?

Dr. Melissa (23:18.063)

That's all right.

Dr. Melissa (23:31.909)

the feeling thing, that it's only about feelings. Because I mean, even when you talk about, because you brought up empaths earlier, but it's only about feelings. And empathy is not only about feelings. It's so much broader than that. I mean, it's got basis in biology and neurobiology and psychology and philosophy. And to just narrow it down and say it's just feelings is really doing it an injustice for just how powerful it is.

Ryann (23:58.337)

So it's the feelings plus the cognitive I understand and what else?

Dr. Melissa (24:04.345)

Well, really it's about being able to take the perspective of the other to understand and connect. So it may not have anything to do with feelings at all. It may not even have anything to do with cognitive. I mean, we talk about when I'm looking at this huge matrix that's empathy. I mean, there's empathy with nature. mean, being able to be out in nature and have that connection and, you know, be able to take perspectives. Animals show empathy. They show empathy to each other.

Ryann (24:08.842)

Yes.

Ryann (24:13.42)

huh.

Ryann (24:27.884)

yeah.

Dr. Melissa (24:33.029)

They show empathy to us and we show it to them. it's, feelings are part of it, but they're not even a little bit of it. It's way bigger than that. Really, it's about perspective taking. And feelings are one way to do that, but they're by far not the only way.

Ryann (24:50.452)

Why does nobody have empathy on social media? If you look at any comment section right now, we've got a lot of divisive things going on. We've got a lot of just terrible, awful things that really get to people. And understandably so. I mean, man, it's a wild time to be alive. Like, it is wild out there. And why can't we just be nice?

Dr. Melissa (25:20.635)

Well, part of it, unfortunately, is the way our human brains work. I mean, there's been a lot of studies that show that the nastiness gets a lot more interplay, gets a lot more interaction, gets people riled up and they get all the comments and all of the stuff. You know, we're going back to if it bleeds, it leads in the news. And that is how our brains work. We pull on the negative stuff before we do the positive. But the other side of that, honestly, is because we let it. If

Ryann (25:39.084)

Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (25:49.348)

we stopped giving it that attention and we started refusing to play into that, it would stop. So that becomes a personal mission, right? If we each took up that standard and said, I'm not going to allow this and enough of us did it, it would stop.

Ryann (26:01.461)

Yeah.

Ryann (26:11.913)

Yeah, it would. I've got tears in my eyes because my affirmation, everybody here knows, they've heard me say it a bunch of times, but right now my affirmation is peace begins with me because, you know, I can control and choose my reactions and my responses and, you know,

everything throughout the day, right? That's concerned with me. And I tell my kids that a lot too, like focus on you, focus on you, because they'll go like, so and so did this, focus on you, like focus on you, like always bringing it back. And I want to say something about getting riled up because my dear, blessed, brave husband, when I was going through this business partnership that was toxic and frustrating and challenging in so many ways.

Dr. Melissa (26:37.263)

Yes.

Ryann (27:03.977)

He said to me one day, Ryan, I think you like this. And I was like, you just nailed it. my God, I do like it. And I just, I cringe, like, because I was like so like wronged and cheated and righteous and it's happening to me. And it was this like little familiar thing that I had with like the drama.

Dr. Melissa (27:10.363)

I'm home.

Dr. Melissa (27:15.641)

You

Ryann (27:29.501)

and the excitement and the I'm so right, they're so wrong. And I was like, my God, you called it, you called it. And so I hope everyone has someone in their life that can call them out like that because it was needed in that moment. But it's true, we do kind of, we do seek the negative, right? Is that like the negativity bias? Is that what it is in our brain or is it called something else?

Dr. Melissa (27:58.022)

Well, they think it goes kind of back to evolutionary stuff that, you know, the good stuff is wonderful, but the bad stuff could kill you. So we tend to focus in on the bad stuff, even though nobody on social media, no social media comment, no matter how trolly it is, is going to kill you. But all the same, sometimes it hits pretty close. And I think part of this too is we have to understand that the only thing we can control in this world is our reaction.

Ryann (28:14.227)

Yeah

Ryann (28:17.738)

Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (28:26.497)

I can't control what someone else is going to do. I can't control what they're going to say. I had someone last week wanting to get in a big argument with me about empathy. And it's like, really? You want to get trolley with the empathy lady? Do you kick puppies for fun too? You know? I mean, there's going to be someone who's going to do that, but it's up to us to be able to react and say, no, that's not who I am.

Ryann (28:42.283)

Right?

Ryann (28:47.211)

Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (28:51.789)

And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's easy. I wanted to reach through the screen at this person. But... Yeah, it is. But we should be able to control our human nature. If not, I mean, we might as well seed the planet back over to nature, because... You know.

Ryann (28:51.839)

Mm-hmm.

Ryann (28:56.235)

Of course. Right, human nature. You're a human. Yeah.

Ryann (29:08.799)

I know, I hear you. know, something my husband and I say a lot is like, it all starts at home, it all starts at home. And this to me gets into the conversation about the way we run companies, the way we work, the way we run our businesses can be like, to me, it's a very parallel skillset, right? Creating the culture, having the empathy, know, setting the values of the home, all of that stuff.

We don't do that here. We do do that here. Here's what you're great at. Like take that and run with it. Here's what you need to work on. Like let's talk about that in our family meeting, you know, all these kind of things. And like how do you see maybe from the clients you've worked, from the research you've done, how it does relate like leadership at home and at work? What are some of those skills that do overlap?

Dr. Melissa (30:05.297)

they absolutely overlap. I mean, totally. And same with empathy. I mean, that's one of the things that makes it so powerful is it's a transferable skill. You can bring that home and do that same connection and understanding. When your partner comes home and they're frustrated and they just want to scream and you're in that feeling with them, even though seeing them that upset also makes you want to scream, you're showing them that empathy. then the leadership of help me understand your situation.

Ryann (30:06.954)

Yeah.

Dr. Melissa (30:34.745)

because I want to be able to help if I can. Help me understand your perspective because you're seeing things differently than I am. Can you show me what you mean? Can you help me see where you're at? Because really that's what leadership is. It's not just bossing people around. I mean, if it were, then I know a lot of people that would be very good leaders. Yeah, yeah. But it's not. It's about understanding the perspective and being able to take that vision and bring people together.

Ryann (30:42.187)

you

Ryann (30:55.658)

Me too.

Dr. Melissa (31:04.443)

so that it's more than just, you know, I lead and you follow, it becomes a shared vision. And that's a real leader. That's the difference between a manager and a leader. So the way business used to work is, you know, they thought of the organization as a machine, right? This comes out of the industrial revolution and mechanization of everything. And so this idea that people were cogs and they were bits and pieces that you could pull out and you could fix and you could make do what you wanted it to do.

And that's a very managerial mindset. I mean, that's kind of what it is. But there's no vision there. There's no, there's just fixing the machine, fixing the machine. People can be fixed. A leader can pull all of these different parts together and have a vision and say, we're moving forward into this future state. And it doesn't matter if that leader is a parent, you know, or if that leader is head of a Fortune 500 company. We, help me understand where you're at so that we can come together.

to move into this optimal future state where we're all gonna be able to be better than we are right now.

Ryann (32:09.809)

Help me understand what a simple revolutionary statement that is. Like, I love that. Help me understand because I think so many of us, and myself included sometimes, right? I'm not like sitting here on my soapbox. I mean, sometimes I am, but it's instead of like, let me show you why I'm so right. know, it's that from like,

Dr. Melissa (32:17.787)

You

Ryann (32:38.709)

Help me understand, because then you put your kind of, is like why I'm so right. This is why I'm so justified in how I feel. I need you to understand. We shift it from that to help me understand. I love that so much. Imagine if everybody used that simple sentence every day.

the world would be different.

Dr. Melissa (33:07.973)

Yeah. One of the things I tell my leaders is that, you know, we're all adults and I don't believe for a second that we're suddenly all going to be puppies and rainbows and nirvana just because we're using empathy. But what if you increased your empathy by 5 %? Just 5%. And that's the kind of statement that could do that. And then it ripples out.

Ryann (33:32.608)

Yep, it does. love that. So if we had a crystal ball, right? Because why not? And we could see, let's say, 30 years into the future. What do you think are the, like, what are the leaders of the companies, the leaders of the communities, leaders of schools? Like, what are those leaders like? Like,

Dr. Melissa (33:42.363)

you

Ryann (33:59.084)

How are things different 30 years from now if everybody takes what we're saying today and runs with it? Like in 2055, what are we looking at?

Dr. Melissa (34:11.161)

Because we're dealing so much with an influx of things that have no empathy, like AI, but that mimic empathy, so that it looks like they have more empathy than some people, which is terrifying, which is why we have people that are getting sucked into it and now we're having lawsuits about suicides and harm and people drifting into psychosis and that sort of thing. The more we deal with this, the more we're going to have to tap into our human side of things.

Ryann (34:25.547)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Melissa (34:41.679)

The ones that don't are going to continue down that path. And unfortunately, it doesn't appear that much good is at the end of it. The ones who do tap into the human side, which is what empathy is. Empathy is the connector of human beings. The more they connect into that, the more they're going to be supercharged because they're going to be able to bring people together instead of having these scattered factions that are trusting technology that has proven itself to fail often, to be biased.

to have serious problems.

they're actually going to be able to lead into the future. We're back to being visionary, you know? And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with AI. There's not. It's an extremely powerful tool, but people are trying to use it for something that it's not when they should be looking to humans for that connection. So the leaders that can actually get a hold of that, they're going to be the visionaries of the future. They're going to be the superstars. They're going to be the ones to lead us in past the age of AI into whatever comes next.

Ryann (35:14.995)

Mm-hmm.

Ryann (35:43.145)

Yeah. How would you teach a kid or a group of kids empathy? Would it be just modeled? Would it be like, here's a book, like, let me teach you? Like, how would you like, like put this in developmentally appropriate terms for say, like, a third grader?

Dr. Melissa (36:03.867)

modeling and interaction is huge because they do actually teach empathy in some countries. It falls under the umbrella of what's called social emotional learning. And a lot of the European nations, the Norse nations, they started as young as six. It goes to the age of 16. There's a reason why they're in the top 10 happiest nations every year and have been since the Nixon administration, you know. So if you're talking age appropriate with kids, they're going to be watching. See, again, as a leader, you're on stage all the time.

Ryann (36:12.286)

Mm-hmm.

Ryann (36:26.354)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Melissa (36:33.017)

and that includes as a parent. They're watching. Are you showing empathy? Or are you just saying have empathy and then tapping on your phone? mean, seriously, I mean, you are the one that's going to set this stage for them, you know, and then interaction. That's why they talk about how kids that have pets, where they interact with the pets and they, you know, learn, maybe even have a little bit of perspective taking, you know, if you don't feed.

poor fluffy, she's going to be really, really hungry. How would you feel? You you just bopped your brother on the head. How would you feel if that was you? know, okay, you've got Winston the turtle, you know, think about where Winston's at where he doesn't have any water. How would you feel if that was you? If this is a turtle and this is his life, how do you feel if this is taken away? You know, that sort of thing. It allows them to start to get outside of their own head.

so that you start taking on the perspective of others. The other thing that we don't necessarily talk about a whole lot is some of the limitations of social media. With social media, the spotlight is always on you. And there are studies that are showing this may be causing a rise in narcissism, among other things, because it's that main character syndrome. This is always about me, it's about me. Well, empathy is about the we, being able to say we.

as a group, a collective. This is how others are feeling, this is how others are acting, this is that perspective taking. So, you know, limiting the social media or at least balancing it with being able to see outside of themselves is huge, especially at those young developmental ages.

Ryann (38:11.368)

Huge. I'm in a book club right now for the anxious generation. I think a lot of people know Jonathan Haidt's work and the harm of social media in particular on developing brains. Like, you know, I think he starts his research at maybe nine, I don't know, pretty young, but the stats aren't good. And I'm only on chapter like four or five, but yeah, it's not looking good. But.

It's, you know, and it's sad because anxiety, depression, self-harm, suicide, like all of these line graphs are just going like up, up, up compared to when I was a kid, you know, in the 80s and 90s. And so, yeah, I think that's a big, it's a big conversation. I think it's a big undertaking for parents in modern parenthood. very much removed from our village. Most of us just have us in our homes and.

We're trying to balance relationships and work and partnerships and finances. And I understand why parents say, here's the iPad, here's the phone, because they want some perceived peace. And I get that. We don't do devices for our kids yet, one day. the conversation is just really far from now.

And when we do do the devices, social media won't be included, I think probably till like high school or beyond, I don't even know. But yeah, I'm glad that you brought that up, because it's so relevant right now. It's so relevant. I'm curious on public speaking. I'm gonna take a little bit of a left turn here. On public speaking. Yes, we do that here. What do you think makes a talk like...

Dr. Melissa (39:48.921)

Yes! Yes.

Ryann (39:56.43)

irresistible to like a conference attendee or a listener. I'm just so curious because I know you've written a book, which I can't wait to talk about as we start to wrap up and you're on stage and you're talking to many people. What do you think like really makes a talk land for an audience?

Dr. Melissa (40:12.869)

I mean, not to sound like I'm repeating myself, but it's empathy, connecting and understanding. What can I bring to my audience that's going to help me connect with them? What's going to resonate with their experience? What will help them understand themselves better through whatever it is that I'm saying? And those are the good talks, the ones where I can walk away and feel that connection of, yeah, that we were connected as a group through that, you know.

We came together in that and we understood each other just a little bit better.

Ryann (40:45.758)

Yeah, it reminds me of the quote of like, don't know who said it, but people don't remember what you said. They remember how you made them feel. It's that, like in a nutshell. I love that. So if you're somebody out there who's making content for the masses or doing talks or writing books, I think a good place to start is like putting yourself in somebody's shoes who's sitting across from you. What are their challenges? What are their fears? What are their...

joys and what do they seek and what do they desire things like that are those good questions to ask ourselves?

Dr. Melissa (41:23.407)

absolutely. And I think that's, it doesn't matter if it's an audience or one-on-one. Even as we're talking, I'm picking up, you know, what is it that you want? Where are you coming from with this? Help me understand your perspective, you know? And then you build a rapport and next thing you know, you you've created connection and you can do it with one person, you can do it with a thousand people. It doesn't matter. It's the same concept.

Ryann (41:35.54)

Yeah.

Ryann (41:42.675)

Yeah.

Ryann (41:48.946)

Yeah. Your work is just so beautiful. Your book is called The Empathetic, right? Yes, The Empathetic Leader. Thank you. Empathetic. That sounds terrible. I'm like, as soon as I said it, I'm like, that doesn't sound right. I was mixing empathic and empathetic. Thank you. Yes, your book, The Empathic Leader, How EQ via Empathy Transforms Leadership for Better Profit.

Dr. Melissa (41:58.084)

Empathic leader.

Dr. Melissa (42:06.811)

That's okay, you're fine, you're fine.

Yes.

Ryann (42:18.665)

productivity and innovation. Why did you write this book and why now, Melissa?

Dr. Melissa (42:24.997)

So the way this book started is I wanted to actually kind of have a handbook for leaders with the stuff that I'm working on and that I'm teaching. I'm wrapping up my second doctorate and I'm like neck deep in the dissertation. So I'm like, my dissertation is leadership and empathy. So I'm like, if this is where I'm at and this is the research I'm doing, then why don't I write a book that might actually help people understand this better? Because as I go through this, you know, the more I get into this, the more for me, this, I want to start a movement.

I want to start something that ripples out everywhere. And for me, for leaders, that's a good place to start because they affect so many people. I spend a little bit of time at the beginning of each chapter talking about my story as a musician and why I left music after some really horrible stuff. And I know a lot of people that have been in that same situation in organizations where they're in a horrifically toxic culture, but they can't get away. You can't leave. You have to stay for some reason.

So I was like, well, why don't I start with that? Because I really want to be able to address leaders and leadership, the stuff that I've been working on in my dissertation, and get it out in a way that people can use it. That's why that book, it's not very long, but I want it to be something that's accessible because I don't know any leader that has time to sit and read a 600 page book. So I try to keep it very accessible and very easy to get a hold of and, you know, that sort of thing.

I've already started on my second book though and that one's going to be geared towards everybody.

Ryann (43:53.225)

Well then.

Ryann (43:58.396)

Awesome. Well, the movement has started. It's official. The movement has begun and I'm yes, I'm just so honored that you were here to teach me to teach everybody here with us today. I really, really believe that the ripple effect is real. I say that so much. You mentioned the ripple effect. Like this is beautiful. This will help me walk forward today and in the coming weeks and months, like thinking about empathy in a different way.

Dr. Melissa (44:02.331)

Excellent. Good.

Ryann (44:27.909)

And I really, really love your work. So for everybody listening, because I know they're going to want to find you and follow you, where should they go to get your book and to follow the work you're doing?

Dr. Melissa (44:40.869)

So you can catch me at my website, which is EQVIA, VIAs and Victor IA Empathy. And there's a place there where you can sign up for my newsletter and you'll get a free chapter of the book if you want to just test it out. It's the chapter on flags actually. So you can see what it's all about. I am on LinkedIn primarily. I'm also on Instagram. And I have a podcast called The Empathic Leader, which is up on YouTube. So you can catch me there too. I'm all over the place.

Ryann (45:05.673)

Perfect. You're all over Dr. Melissa. You're just, making your rounds and it's great. Like, you know, be seen, get on the stage, like do the hard thing. And I think it's just, it's so admirable. It's courageous and it's awesome. So thank you for your work. As we wrap up, I'm gonna ask you the questions that I ask everybody at the end of the interview. And the first one is what's bringing you joy today?

Dr. Melissa (45:33.881)

My cat. She brought me one of her little toys this morning and she was so excited to share it with me and it just made me so happy that she was happy.

Ryann (45:35.369)

you

Ryann (45:41.769)

Aww, what's her name?

Dr. Melissa (45:44.067)

Jadwiga. It's a Polish name because my husband's mother came from Poland so my cats are Jadwiga and Natasha Nogutnik.

Ryann (45:45.266)

Yad Vigar!

Ryann (45:53.945)

That's so cool. I love that. My grandma's family came from Poland. so tell your kitties, kochamce. Isn't that how you say I love you in kochamce? Is that it? Is that how you say I love you in Polish? Okay, well, maybe. I can't remember if that's right, but I want to say it is. So yes, tell your cats I love them too. We have a dog. Yeah. Okay. And then the next question I have for you is what, if anything, are you reading right now?

Dr. Melissa (46:09.379)

I am not sure.

Dr. Melissa (46:17.399)

I will, I will.

Dr. Melissa (46:25.249)

I am reading Bad Blood, which is, well here it is. It's the book on Theranos. I don't know if Elizabeth Holmes and the whole Theranos thing, because I'm actually looking at it like a case study for toxic leadership. So I'm going after it with a researcher's eye, because I'm curious how something could have gotten so out of control.

Ryann (46:48.23)

Is that a true crime thing? Okay, because I'm so far off the beaten path of like the true crime and like mystery things, because I always say my brain's like a little crazy enough that I just, can't read stuff like that because it makes me feel like, my God, it's like freaks me out. So I've never heard of it and that's okay. But I think that it's really cool.

Dr. Melissa (46:50.243)

Yeah, I don't know if it counts as crime or not, but it's def, it should be, yeah.

Ryann (47:15.09)

people like you who can do the research and understand it from kind of an objective point of view of like, how do we not let this continue to happen in society? I'm grateful for you in doing that, because somebody's got to do it.

Dr. Melissa (47:30.233)

Well, I appreciate that very much because, you know, I really do want to start a movement so the more people say, yes, I'm in it with you. Yes, this is important. Yes, let's do this together. That's what I want. If I could get a multinational collaboration of people saying, yes, let's do this, that would be my dream.

Ryann (47:32.561)

Yeah.

Ryann (47:48.188)

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think it's gonna happen. I know it's gonna happen. I really do. Okay, the last question I have for you is who or what has taught you the most?

Dr. Melissa (48:03.311)

Honestly, my husband. We didn't meet until later in life. I was over 40 and I think he was just barely over 40 by the time we got married. being with him and being with someone who accepts me unconditionally the way I am, even when I do my crazy things that I do, has been eye-opening. I see myself differently through him. And he's the one that's allowed me to do the stuff that I'm doing right now.

not as in he let me but as in he kind of helped set me free from some of my own self-imposed shackles.

Ryann (48:40.1)

Mm, I love that. Shout out to your husband and all the good men out there. I always say shout out to all the good men out there supporting their strong and courageous women, because it's not an easy task. So that's beautiful. Thank you so much again for being here, Melissa. This conversation was amazing.

Dr. Melissa (48:54.479)

No.

Dr. Melissa (49:01.436)

Thank you so much for having me. This has just been such a delight and just much love to you and your audience, Ryan. Thank you.